Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

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Gareth Green
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Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by Gareth Green » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:31 am

Has anyone else had to deal with this before?

There's a test file attached; it seems to be out-of-the-box default behaviour. I open a default document, change the time signature to 12/8 and enter a dotted quarter. I skip to the next measure. Auto-fill With Rests kicks in, and I am left with dotted-half rest followed by dotted-quarter rest. Surely this is incorrect? In 4/4, the default would be quarter-note, followed by quarter-rest, then half-rest. Surely in 12/8 it should follow the same pattern. I have Quantisation setting set to allow dotted rests in compound time, so the issue isn't the dotted rests. Does anyone know of another setting I might be missing?

Thanks in advance,

Gareth
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

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Peter Thomsen
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:42 am

If I Recall Correctly, this issue has been discussed before.

Obviously the dotted quarter rest should be first.

Fortunately we do not get this incorrect rest order in 4/4.
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Gareth Green
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by Gareth Green » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:18 am

Further investigation reveals that I can't even manually correct one measure and paste to another; the target measure reverts to the incorrect order. This is going to be a nightmare in my current project.
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by John Ruggero » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:19 pm

Same strange behavior here. Maybe input a dotted quarter note and then a dotted quarter rest each time the situation occurs?
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Peter Thomsen
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:26 pm

Gareth Green wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:18 am
Further investigation reveals that I can't even manually correct one measure and paste to another; the target measure reverts to the incorrect order …
Let me guess:

1) Your document is a multi-staff document (like e. g. a string quartet), not a one-staff document (like a flute solo) - right?

2) You are copying one measure of a single staff - right?

3) You are not making a Stack Selection of that single staff - right?

At first it seems impossible to make a Stack Selection of a single staff in a multi-staff document.
The secret is that you should switch to Scroll View (if you are not there already), and program a Staff Set of only that single staff.

When you are viewing the Staff Set, you can make a Stack Selection of that single staff.
With a Stack Selection you can copy the measure - and Finale will not “re-calculate” the rests.
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by Gareth Green » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:31 pm

Thanks Peter, that may be the solution; I'll experiment.
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:33 pm

If I insert the correct rests manually and then copy the rests only, they stay put. (I use v26.)

Also if I copy the whole measure with correct rests, these are not changed - but I guess you would need to have different notes on the first beat in different places. A workaround could be to copy whole measures with the same rhythmic pattern and then change the first dotted quarter with return/enter (in Speedy).
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Peter Thomsen
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:54 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:33 pm
If I insert the correct rests manually and then copy the rests only, they stay put. (I use v26.)

Also if I copy the whole measure with correct rests, these are not changed …
Let me guess:
You are talking about the one-staff test document Gareth Green attached to the first post - right?

The copying problem (= Finale re-calculating the rests) happens when the selection is not a Stack Selection.
E. g. in a multi-staff document where you select only a single staff.

See my previous post for a full description.
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:12 pm

Ok, I see your point, Peter. Thanks for the enlightenment.

I am familiar with the stack selection workaround. I think it was you who tipped me off on that one, once.
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motet
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by motet » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:42 pm

This problem has been around probably since the beginning of Finale. MakeMusic must have thousands of bugs on their list.

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motet
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by motet » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:54 pm

In terms of copying, the rests copy correctly whether I make a stack selection or not, and whether the "allow dotted rests" options are checked or not. What am I not understanding?
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David Ward
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by David Ward » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:56 pm

This has been annoying me for years. I use 12/8 and 9/8 (which had an equivalent error, I'm not sure whether it's still there) frequently and have learnt to put up with it (but should probably take the trouble to complain, complain and complain again and again to MM).

Motet, I think the copying error may now be Mac only. I'm certainly encountering it every time I copy and paste right now in my current project if the dotted crotched was not entered from scratch manually, rather than corrected after the event in the source bar.
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by motet » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:30 pm

"Fill with rests" is wrong for me, but not copying, but I could well be misunderstanding Gareth's issue.

In 9/8, if you have "allow dotted rests in compound meter", "fill with rests" pads a dotted crotchet note with a dotted minim rest, which is wrong, I think (you'd want two dotted crotchet rests, or crotchet-quaver-crotchet-quaver). So a dotted minim rest at the end of the bar should occur in 12/8 but not 9/8.

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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:42 pm

This is mysteriouser and mysteriouser.
What I get when copying rests only - without stack selection - is:
Copy rests 1.JPG
Copy rests 1.JPG (18.08 KiB) Viewed 744 times
- and when copying whole measures, still without stack selection:
Copy rests 2.JPG
Copy rests 2.JPG (18.15 KiB) Viewed 744 times
The same happens when I copy horizontally, to the following measure. I recently trashed the preferences, so the 'fill with rests at the end of the measure' is on (I usually turn it off). Probably it doesn't affect this.
motet wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:54 pm
In terms of copying, the rests copy correctly whether I make a stack selection or not, and whether the "allow dotted rests" options are checked or not. What am I not understanding?
We seem to have experienced the same thing then.
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Re: Strange/Incorrect/Unwanted Behaviour in 12/8

Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:06 pm

Just to clarify, if needed:
The stack selection method is necessary when copying the following 'invented' rhythm (a tip I myself got from Peter):
Copy rests 3.JPG
Copy rests 3.JPG (20.97 KiB) Viewed 693 times
- otherwise Finale would 'correct' it to:
Copy rests 4.JPG
Copy rests 4.JPG (20.86 KiB) Viewed 693 times
In other words, this seems not to apply to the straightforward rhythm of the OP.
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