Quintuplet figure across a barline

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ewindels
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Post by ewindels » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:27 pm

I want to switch the grouping of these notes from 3:2 to 5:4, which means coming up with some workaround to get the last 2 notes of the first group across the bar line. Assuming there's no plug-in, JW or otherwise, to easily do this, any suggestions for a workaround? I realize I'll probably have to create a manual 5:4 and bracket.
Untitled.jpg
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:32 pm

ewindels,

In the middle measure the time signature is 5/4 - right?
In your attached graphic I can not see the time signature’s “numerator” 5 very well.

I am not sure, what rhythm you need.
I suppose that the first five triplet quarters should be changed to five quintuplet quarters - right?

Perhaps you need this rhythm?
Quituplet.jpg
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ewindels
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Post by ewindels » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:08 pm

Hi Peter,

You've done five 8ths in the space of 4. I'm looking for five quarter notes in the space of four. (I want to change what's there now). And that will be across the border, and I'm not sure how to do that.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:35 pm

I'm afraid it's hard to know what you're talking about from the picture you provided. Where does the desired quintuplet begin? I assume the middle bar is 5/4, but the time signature looks messed up.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:38 pm

ewindels wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:08 pm
Hi Peter,

You've done five 8ths in the space of 4. I'm looking for five quarter notes in the space of four. (I want to change what's there now). And that will be across the border, and I'm not sure how to do that.
Sorry, I was not clear.

As a beginning I just wanted to make sure I understand, what the (sounding) rhythm should be.
When the (sounding) rhythm is established, we can talk about the layout.

What I have written, is the (sounding) rhythm you need - right?
But it is not the layout you need - right?
A layout of {5 Quarters in the space of 4 Quarters} will go across the barline, and that is the layout you need - right?

What I have written, will give the needed sounding rhythm, and my layout will work across a system break, in the score or in the part.

My next question for you:
What should the layout of {5 Quarters in the space of 4 Quarters} look like if it goes across a system break?

Please explain.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:51 am

A slight “variation on the theme”.

Quintuplet.jpg
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:41 am

with the Patterson plugins there's a beam across barline option. but if you ask me, it looks weird.
I prefer the quintuplets of 8th notes.
I had to jiggle around with the 2 quarters in the 2nd bar. the plugin placed them too close to the barline and time signature.
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ewindels
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Post by ewindels » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:02 pm

YES! This is what I'm looking for. Michael, how did you do this? Which plug-in?
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:31 pm

it was done with the Patterson plugins. however I don't know if it's available other than in the full paid-package.
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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:55 pm

Look at Plug-ins/Note, Beam, and Rest Editing/Patterson Plug-ins Light/Beam Over Barlines. Since there are no beams, though, I'm not sure it buys you much.

You can instead overstuff the first measure, then hide a half rest at the beginning of the second (see below). If it crosses a system break, though, I think you're out of luck no matter what.
Last edited by motet on Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:51 pm

that's basically all the plugin does... and yes, it works FAR better on music that has beams.
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ewindels
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Post by ewindels » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:11 pm

OK, riddle me this, guys:

In example 1, I was able to make this work just with the tuplet tool, no special or other alteration:
5-4 Ex 1.jpg
But in this other space, no luck:
5-4 Ex 2.jpg
Exactly the same settings in the tuplet window in both cases.

The patterson plugin Lite doesn't seem to have any effect, but I'm assuming that's because there are no beams involved. I don't mind upgrading to the pro version, just curious why tupleting would work in one case and not the other.
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RVS Lee
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Post by RVS Lee » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:44 pm

I don't mean to pile on, but the layout in the 'Glock' example is incorrect; the G should appear *before* the barline.
And as to the 2nd example - did you accidentally jump into the 2nd bar before entering the last 2 notes of the quintuplet?

It is worth repeating that Finale cannot create a 'real' tuplet across a barline. The Patterson plug-in automates a complicated way of graphically 'faking it' by putting too many notes in a measure and then moving the graphic representation of those notes into the graphic representation of the next measure. That is why it doesn't work across system breaks, and also why you will probably need to repeat the plugin when you lay out the part.

It will always be a great deal of effort to make it look right, but I can understand why it you would want to do so.

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:37 pm

Here's a rather simple workaround, which I've used myself instead of going into the depths of 'cross-barline' methods:
Quintuplet across barline.JPG
The first three quarters are made as a triplet with hidden number and bracket. The hooked line is a custom Smart Shape, the figures are made as an expression with an invisible, opaque frame. The placement of it seems to be maintained, and editable, in linked parts.
Of course it wouldn't work correctly in playback.
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ewindels
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Post by ewindels » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:43 pm

Perfect! And since this whole section in the percussion is supposed to sound "loose" anyway, correct playback isn't top of my mind.
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