Repetition after clef

[Slavicek]

Hello everybody,

I'm enclosing a screenshot from Lutoslawski's Livre with a red arrow pointing to the part of the score I'm interested in. For the aleatoric part in double bassoon and tuba, one can see repetition signs after the clef. Can any of you think of an optimal way of achieving this?

In the case the clef is displayed after the barline, mid-measure repeat would require adding an extra beat at the beginning, which would one need to hide and spend some extra time respacing the contents of the bar to make it look appealing. If clef should be displayed before the barline, one would then probably have to split the previous bar to add that extra barline before the clef.

Any thoughts or ideas? Could it be somehow possible to use mid-measure repeat on the whole measure, so that repeat sign stands between the clef and the first beat?

repetition.JPG

[motet]

I guess I'm not understanding. Isn't this what Finale always does?

[Slavicek]

motet - must have skipped a part of explanation, apologies for that.

Yes, Finale does place repetition sign after the clef, but in Lutoslawski's case we can notice an additional barline right before the clef. So how does one most efficiently place clef *between* a barline and a repetition sign? Splitting a bar before the aleatoric and adding additional barline whilst hiding them in the rest of the staves seems like a lot of work if the entire score is aleatoric (it would factually mean splitting every single bar in it).

[Anders Hedelin]

What puzzles me is why the left barline isn't drawn through the two staves, since the two instruments obviously play - or at least start - together.
So, this is what I would have expected, and it's what Finale does by default:

Left barlines and forward repeat 1.JPG

To achieve the look of your original, I tried this: Document Options > Barlines > Left Barlines > uncheck Display on Multiple Staves. Then adding fake left barlines as expressions (in v 26 they are found as readymades in Miscellaneous category).

Left barlines and forward repeat 2.JPG

[Anders Hedelin]

PS

There's also the possibility to create the two staves in question as two separate staff systems, which would make the rhythmic independence (and the end repeats) easier to achieve. (It wouldn't work for playback, though, but aleatoric music wouldn't anyhow.)

In this case the left barlines are obtained like this: Document Options > Barlines > Left Barlines > check Display on Single Staves.

[Slavicek]

Anders Hedelin - I guess they separated it because bassoon and tuba don't belong to the same section (woodwinds vs. brass). I cannot think any other reason to do that, and I agree with you, connected staves would be visually logical.

In the second picture you have attached in your previous post - are the clefs placed before or after (official) barline? Repetition signs appear in front of the clef by Finale's default at the beginning of the staff/row, but what about, say in second or third bar, when the previous ones are hidden? Or better said, did you use regular repetition tool or mid-measure plug in?

[Anders Hedelin]

Slavicek, I'm not sure that I understood all of your question, but, yes, in both examples, I used the repeat tool, and for a regular forward repeat, not a mid-measure one. Was this what you asked about?

[Slavicek]

And what did you do with the bar before that one? You hid the staves before the clef and inserted and extra barline (first screenshot of your previous reply, not second)?

I'm afraid Finale doesn't place repetition sign after clef "by default", but it places it in the position of a barline, wherever that barline may be. It may be a split measure, it may be a regular one, but it's always there because repetition sign itself works as a type of a barline. One can, of course, either leave clef before the barline (as it is there by default), or place it after, in which case if would appear in front of repetition line. But that doesn't change the fact that the repetition line is still at the location of where a regular barline would be.

I guess what I've been wondering is if there is a way around that, that the repetition sign floats somewhere freely inside of bar, so that one doesn't need to split bars all the time in order to position the repetitions where desired.

[Anders Hedelin]

I think I may answer your first question. To have the staves in question start indented to the right, you simply can use the Page Layout Tool and drag the beginning of the staff system to the right:

Left barlines and forward repeat 3.png

If you don't want the shared left barline for the two last staves, but for other staves, I'm afraid it will need some workarounds.

Your other questions I'm afraid that I don't understand really, because I can't recall having met those problems.

[motet]

It seems like this has nothing to do with repeats.

If it's just one staff, it's easily done with an expression. The line is already in the default Miscellaneous category. Edit its position as follows:

[Anders Hedelin]

Or like this:

In this case the left barlines are obtained like this: Document Options > Barlines > Left Barlines > check Display on Single Staves.

Or any of the other solutions I already gave.

[motet]

In the case the clef is displayed after the barline, mid-measure repeat would require adding an extra beat at the beginning, which would one need to hide and spend some extra time respacing the contents of the bar to make it look appealing. If clef should be displayed before the barline, one would then probably have to split the previous bar to add that extra barline before the clef.

Here, too, an expression can get the look you want:

[Slavicek]

Thank you both for the suggestion. Obviously there are few possibilities to achieve the wanted and the optimal one, I guess, depends on the context and what at the moment seems easiest, having in mind how the rest of the score is arranged. I haven't thought of moving the staff to the right, though, it's was a good idea.