8va

[Hector Pascal]

Hi all,

I would like layer 1 and layer 2 to be played up the octave. Is my usage of the 8va markings ok? At first, I just extended the 8va for layer one all the way over to cover the layer 2 bit, though I abandoned that idea as Gould says to indicate it separately for each layer. Interestingly, I also note in Gould that 8va (where the va is aligned with the bottom of the numeral) is for octave lower, and when the va is aligned with the top of the numeral it signifies up the octave. I wasn't 100% aware of that, but it makes sense to me now I think about it...

Let me know what you think of my use of the octave markings in my picture...

Screen Shot 2020-07-26 at 12.03.48 pm.png

Cheerio,
Hector.

[zuill]

I am not in agreement with Gould. What you have looks like an octave lower for the layer 2 notes. I prefer one 8va sign above the staff extending across both layers. But then, I like ease of reading and clarity.

Zuill

[Hector Pascal]

Hi zuill,

Yes, I understand what you mean. Incidentally, Finale playback correctly interprets the notation that you suggest, whereas it doesn't correctly interpret Gould's (although one could force it).

Cheerio,
HP

[motet]

I abandoned that idea as Gould says to indicate it separately for each layer. Interestingly, I also note in Gould that 8va (where the va is aligned with the bottom of the numeral) is for octave lower, and when the va is aligned with the top of the numeral it signifies up the octave.

I just read through the Gould and I think you've misunderstood. 8 or 8va above the staff means an octave higher; 8 or 8va below the staff and octave lower. The alignment she mentions is just for aesthetics (a trifle that's by no means universal) and doesn't indicate which way the transposition goes.

I'm not sure what you mean by separately for each layer. Layers are an internal input technique in Finale and irrelevant as far as what's finally printed on the page. I'm pretty sure she would advocate for a single 8va above the staff as Zuill suggests. Perhaps she said that for a grand staff, each staff needs its own? Though I couldn't even find that.

[Hector Pascal]

Hi motet, indeed I think I mis-understood the paragraph on p.324, where she referred to separate staves, whereas I was thinking separate layers.... Must be time for a coffee break!

Cheers,
Hector.
PS: I have adopted your (and zuill's) sage advice.

[Jay Emmes]

Traditionally the sign would read 8vb (ottava bassa) for lowering an octave. I'm not sure why Finale did not use the unambiguous traditional sign.

[miker]

From what I've read, the 8vb is not used in classical or traditional music. The 8va is shorthand for ottava (octave.) A later use started to read it as ottava alta, and so so ottava bassa was born.

Not fighting; just sayin'.

[motet]

Yes, "8vb" is fairly new, not traditional at all. Some people hate it, but it doesn't particularly bother me (though I don't use it). It used to be the default in Finale, and there's a character in the font. If you hover the mouse over its SmartShape tool it says "8va/8vb tool," but recent versions they made "8va" the default for above and below.

[zuill]

When working with students, 8vb helps them to be certain about which way to go. Even with professionals, it doesn't hurt to be as clear as possible. There shouldn't be any question with 8vb. Sometimes a Bass staff 8va can be close to the Treble staff on the next system. So, having 8va below the staff can possibly be misconstrued as an 8va above the Treble staff on the system below. With 8vb, there shouldn't be any confusion.

Zuill

[motet]

That's a very good reason for using it.

It used to be the default in Finale...but recent versions they made "8va" the default for above and below.

Or is it a "program setting"? I may well have changed it and forgotten.

[Michel R E]

one main reason I dislike the "8vb" symbol is that as an abbreviation it makes no grammatical sense.
if anything, it should be "8ba".

[zuill]

That's a very good reason for using it.

It used to be the default in Finale...but recent versions they made "8va" the default for above and below.

Or is it a "program setting"? I may well have changed it and forgotten.

It's in the Smart Shape Options in the Smart Shape Settings. It is saved with the document, not a global setting.

Zuill

[motet]

Thanks. Unlike Repeat/Repeat Options and Lyrics/Lyric Options, there is no corresponding tab in Document Options, so I wasn't sure. It's also confusing that it says "(8va)" on the pull-down menu no matter what symbol it's set to. I suspect that confuses some people.

[miker]

one main reason I dislike the "8vb" symbol is that as an abbreviation it makes no grammatical sense.
if anything, it should be "8ba".

I would think that 8vab is more accurate.

[Michel R E]

one main reason I dislike the "8vb" symbol is that as an abbreviation it makes no grammatical sense.
if anything, it should be "8ba".

I would think that 8vab is more accurate.

the correct Italian abbreviation is "8ba"

[motet]

8ba would abbreviate "ottaba." 8va is kind of like 1st or Mme Mlle--one word.

I understand that it's a malaprop, but I think 8vb is here to stay, so might as well get used to it. Maybe think of it as the twisted abbreviation of the abbreviations 8va bª

[miker]

Now we’re just splitting hairs, but if 8va means ottava (at the octave) then for ottava bassa, I think 8vab is closer.

But I certainly won’t dispute it. You guys are all way above my pay grade!

[Jay Emmes]

8 = otto
8v = ottavo (eighth)
8va = ottava alta
8vb = ottava bassa