Survey: Finale interface

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Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

Would you welcome major changes to the user interface?

Yes
6
26%
No
17
74%
 
Total votes: 23

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gogreen
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Post by gogreen » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:48 pm

I agree with Peter Thomsen and others. Major interface changes, no. Interface improvements, yes.
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RimasG
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Post by RimasG » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:56 pm

Two monitors - I understand. I work with two monitors myself. But why two computers?
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:04 pm

What I don't understand is, OK, leave the interface alone but things like JW and TG Tools and Patterson are real helpers. So why not have MM incorporate Perfect Layout? It is the same as the others a plug-in. I wonder how long did MM ignore JW or TG Tools or the others?
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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:49 pm

ebiggs1 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:04 pm
What I don't understand is, OK, leave the interface alone but things like JW and TG Tools and Patterson are real helpers. So why not have MM incorporate Perfect Layout? It is the same as the others a plug-in. I wonder how long did MM ignore JW or TG Tools or the others?
I am certainly not privy to the inner workings of MM or the plugin developers, but it's a pretty safe bet that money is at the core.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:09 pm

Yup, I suspect you are correct, sir.

The nice thing about a plug-in is, if you love it and like it and use it great but if you don't, it doesn't change a thing otherwise.
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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:31 pm

Right. I use a few of Jari’s plugins, and send him donations on an irregular basis. But if MM were to buy him out, and boost the price of Finale by an unreasonable amount to cover it, that would not make me happy.

Think of it as a la carte. If I want potatoes (or Perfect Layout) I’ll order them. But if I don’t, why should I pay for them? The same used to be true when there were multiple versions of Finale. If SongWriter does what I need, why buy the full Finale? Eventually, I wanted the extra features, and moved up.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:46 pm

I am afraid I don't share your same thoughts. I use, or I used to use TG Tools align dynamics, and JW Change and JW Polyphonic.
I really don't care much for any of the others. However, on the scene now is Perfect Layout. I debated with Jan for a long while before I decided to give in any buy it. I am not a power user and only do a few charts for my various groups so why do I need PL?
Now that I have it and had it for a while I can't see using Finale without it. Why? Because it does what Finale should do directly from MM. If there were a way to incorporate PL into Finale code, I am all over that. MM should be also.

If you are a composer that does a few or even one score a year you would benefit from using PL. PL is complicated because it has many adjustments and settings. Luckily for me the default settings work well for my stuff. I just sent my latest score "2020 Heroes" to KU and Baker University after running PL on it and it looks great. Almost no input from me. I hope it sounds as good as it looks! :?

The way Finale throws everything around, it sorely needs PL.
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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:51 pm

Finale doesn't throw anything around, but puts it where you tell it (that, in fact, is the problem).

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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:37 pm

ebiggs1,

That illustrates my point. I have never done an orchestral score, nor is it likely that I would. So why should I pay extra for a version of Finale that includes PL?
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:42 pm

because PL also handles non-orchestral scores?
why say no to something that will make life easier whether you write large complex scores or small simpler scores?
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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:03 pm

I guess because I’be never needed it. If I came across a situation where I did, I would buy it without a second thought. The same way I handle tools for my shop. If I can do a job with what I have, I do it. If I need something else, I buy it. But at my age and stage of my career, there just isn’t much point in the “I may need it sometime later on” purchase plan.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:22 pm

Miler you sound exactly like me before I got PL.
It works equally well on a brass quintet.
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Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:32 pm

miker wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:00 pm
I agree with michel. I would have to see a lot of evidence that fixes and improvements were made. If they only made the changes to make the program more attractive to new users, they would lose many older ones.

Give us steak, not just sizzle.
Quite. As it is, focusing on the surface, before anything else, would be rather suicidal in my opinion.

If MM would have the notion to attract new users by a new, slick interface, but nothing else, I think they might have a surprise coming.

Needless to say, I voted no. Not that I'm adverse to improvements of the interface, but first things first.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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miker
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Post by miker » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:42 pm

Just as an example (or perhaps, cautionary tale...)

SmartScore was just updated to 64-bit, as SmartScore 64. There is a completely new interface. I've spent a few hours finding out where things have been moved. Fortunately shortcuts, which I use extensively, have remained the same. But some things, which I really don't need, have been added to the GUI and can't be removed or customized.

And, not even a Read Me about what's changed. Granted, the failings say more about the developers and less about the app itself (which I will continue to depend on.)
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:15 pm

Is it a free update? Are the new things that can't be customized causing you a problem?

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:58 pm

No it is not. Ir is a hundred bucks. And, they once again screwed up my registration. These companies are so worried about pirate that they make is hard on honest folks. Plus it takes them forever to fix it which I think they will. They did last time.

One nice thing they answer the phone. :D
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:22 pm

I have a feeling it's one guy in Ojai. If it works better I might spring for the upgrade. Otherwise, the 32-bit version will continue to run on Windows for many years, I'm guessing.

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miker
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Post by miker » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:14 pm

I think there are two of them! In any case, they are responsive, although sometimes, a tad brusque. (I am too, sometimes. And I suspect I bug them more than most, so I can easily overlook that.)

No, the thing that bothers me the most about the new interface (a lot of unwanted tiles) can’t be changed. And they have gone to a ribbon, rather than mini-pallets. I can get used to that, though.

On the plus side, I do like that the program now connects with the scanner from within the program, and automatically adjusts the resolution for optimal results. And once I make the adjustment, the replacement for the mini pallets will be fine, maybe even better. Just a matter of relearning a few ingrained actions.

I’m waiting for some barbershop or other scores, to see if the claimed improvement in recognition is for real.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:21 pm

I really don't use it all that often but the once in Finale scanner was so poor I bought Smart Score. Again, if you have good copy it does a great job. If you have old manuscripts yellowed and torn it doesn't.
I don't do many if any edits in SC. It is one of the most convoluted music editors ever so I doubt the GUI will bother me. When once again they get me squared away. Not yet though although they take your money instantly! :shock:
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miker
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Post by miker » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:42 pm

That’s interesting. I find the editing much easier in SS than in Finale. On the other hand, working on a new piece Is ridiculous, since mouse entry is required.

ebiggs, if you want to take this off the forum, I’d be happy to chat. Maybe we can both learn something! Shoot me a PM or an email.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:47 pm

OK but keep in mind I don't use it a whole lot. So I doubt you get anything from me. I will likely get pointers from you!
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:21 pm

I tried it on a very simple bass part--2/4, almost all quarter notes--that looks like it was done with an early version of Finale (Petrucci font), very clean, offset-printed, and was not impressed. The main problem is that it missed barlines, and so created nonsense like "4/4 displayed as 2/4" in Finale. I think it could be a lot better if it assumed that such things are extremely rare (if they exist at all) and realize it missed a barline and insert it.

In a former lifetime I was one of the inventors of the OCR program OmniPage, so I know how how hard text recognition can be, and music recognition is probably even harder. But another thing I know is that if the error rate is above a certain amount, it becomes not worth it because of the fix-up involved.

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:38 pm

...it becomes not worth it because of the fix-up involved.
I totally agree but I have had scores, not huge scores, recognized 99% in Smart Score 32 bit. My main most thing is brass quintets.
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miker
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Post by miker » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:50 pm

motet,
Can you send me that doc?

wawoodman at aol dot com
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:44 pm

OK, I'll try to dig it up. I'm sure you're right that fixing it in SS is better than in Finale, but my main point is that such measures that appear to have too many beats could be a clue to the program to look again at what it thought was noise. Especially if the measure has twice as many beats as all the others!

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