Finale sounds

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ebiggs1
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Finale Version: Finale 27.3
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:29 pm

I think I have my Finale sounds pretty much fixed. I have the COMB2 and GPO add in sounds. I have a new pair of JBL 305 Studio Monitors. Do a little, well actually quite a bit of tweaking with the various mixers in Finale and the sound is pretty awesome.

However, the percussion is still pretty lame. What is there is nice but Finale is sorely lacking in percussion instruments once you get outside a snare drum and bass drum. Cymbals pretty bad. Most other instruments are there at all. Or, am I missing something?
Is there a way of getting more better realistic percussion sounds?

You know the amount of money you spend on Finale, its quirks and frustrations, the extra hardware, extra sounds and extra plug-ins just to get it to work as it should is mind boggling. At least it is for this ole Kansas boy! Ya gotta love it or people might think you're nutso or insane.
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Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.


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zuill
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Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
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Post by zuill » Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:43 pm

GIfF has quite a few percussion instruments available. What are you needing that you can't find? GPO and COMB2 have even more.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:05 pm

I see they do but they do not sound? What am I missing all the other Garritan sounds do fine. Not the percussion though.
Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:44 pm

I only use GIfF, so that's all I can test. If you would create a file of percussion with GIfF that needs fixing, I might be of help. If GIfF can do what is needed, surely the other 2 will give many more sounds. What is important is understanding percussion Maps and Layouts. Once that is figured out, the rest is easier.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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gogreen
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Post by gogreen » Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:57 pm

Which percussion instruments do you find lacking?

When I first bought COMB2 and GPO5, I had trouble finding the right sounds that distinguished an orchestral clashed (crash) cymbals sound and a suspended cymbal sound. In GPO5's basic orchestral percussion, I settled on midi note 85 for a truer clashed (crash) cymbals sound and midi note 93 for the best suspended cymbal sound.
Art
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:13 pm

Here is what I did, I bought an "expensive" pair of JBL headphones. The sounds at least the ones I tried are there. They are just so low in volume that you can't hear them without the headphones. And, you can't have any of the other tracks playing either. So now I guess the question moves from "not there" to, how to make them useable or loud enough to actually hear them in conjunction with the rest of the chart.

The rest of the band or orchestra sounds great especially since I got the JBL speakers.
Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.

ttw
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Post by ttw » Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:18 pm

For "world" percussion, the Garritan World Instruments isn't bad. I use the Cuban stuff a lot (bongs, congas, etc.) There is a problem with matching volumes across libraries but I fix that in the Aria player. (I also use the presets in the convolution reverb so I don't have to think or experiment. I turn off the Ambiance.)

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gogreen
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Post by gogreen » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:01 pm

So now I guess the question moves from "not there" to, how to make them useable or loud enough to actually hear them in conjunction with the rest of the chart.
In addition to what ttw said, place the low-sounding instruments in their own Aria instances and pump up their volumes in "Audio Units Banks & Effects" (I forget what this is called in Windows). You can also adjust the volume of individual instruments in Score Manager.
Art
Finale 27
NotePerformer, GPO5, COMB2
MacOS Ventura 13.6.4
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BRHBTHT/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=%22Arthur+J.+Michaels%22&qid=1593016536&sr=8-2

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:42 pm

I tried several different things some suggested here. None seem to help and most make it worse to no sounds at all.
Here is a sample. It has not had PL run on it so don't look at that part!
Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
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gogreen
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Post by gogreen » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:08 pm

When I reassign playback sounds to NotePerformer, the sample sounds fine--including percussion. Except for the Aria player and Garritan sounds suggestions I made, I can't think of any other ways to tweak the playback.
Art
Finale 27
NotePerformer, GPO5, COMB2
MacOS Ventura 13.6.4
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BRHBTHT/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=%22Arthur+J.+Michaels%22&qid=1593016536&sr=8-2

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:20 pm

When I got the pop-up about not having the same Aria player, Finale wiped out all the assigned sounds. When I reassigned the sounds through the automatic process, I got Percussion playing back. However, some sounds, like the Cymbal Crash, were very soft. However, using the MIDI Tool and making other adjustments i was able to get a level that was usable.

An aside: It's rare to get a Cymbal player to get a mf crash. Barney Fife comes to mind. All of his Cymbal crashes were ffff.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:21 pm

"When I reassign playback sounds to NotePerformer, the sample sounds fine ....
I don't have Noteperformer.
The Aria player will not let me change the way it wants to put sounds in. All the brass and woodwinds do sound fine. Actually pretty awesome with the new JBL speakers or headphones. The SD and BD is OK. Cymbals pretty bad and toms non-existent. As is much of the other percussion like triangle, tambourine, gong, etc. I have tried all that was suggested and at this point I am pretty frustrated with it. I never had it, so I guess I can still write music without it. I hate to say it but Sibelius is looking better all the time. I just worry I am too old to start a new notation program.

The Aria player is not totally functionable in the Windows 10 version. Before the kung-flu virus I would just have out concert band play it and adjust on the fly. Pretty old school ain't it?

Thanx to everyone for the tips and advice. I really appreciate you all.
EB
Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:18 pm

I put the 3 percussion staves (Perc 1, 2, 3) into Aria Player Bank 3 and then did my adjustments, and I got some pretty good sound going.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:40 pm

Are you running Finale 26? Are you on Windows 10? Did you have any other instruments beside percussion? The Aria will not let me put instruments in any other order beside the way it puts them in. If you don't let it do its thing you get no sounds of any kind.

I started to wonder if this wasn't like the ridiculous printing problem MM had with Finale 26 and Windows 10. MM refused to even acknowledge that was a issue at the beginning. Then in update number 3 they fixed it. I sent MM a tech support question about the Aria player and why some features were no working. No answer and it was a week ago. But who is surprised.

BTW, the Aria player works as it is supposed to when I load Finale 2014.5 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:06 am

I moved the 3 percussion staves to Bank 3 in the Score Manager. Finale 26.3.1 and Windows 10.

Also, you had created some unusual setups in the staff that had the Toms. I played around with it and I was able to get the rolls, which weren't playing at first. It was a keyswitch issue, maybe. I'll have to play with it later to finalize fixes that I had only tested before.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:19 am

I had to do some trickery as there are special circumstances with some of the Garritan samples that require some special treatment.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:43 pm

I just d/l it and I will check it out. Thanx so much for caring. :)
Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:13 pm

I took screenshots of your settings. I will try them and see if I can get it to work.

I am not surprised you found oddities in the toms. No telling what I tried but rest assured there were many attempts. I am not fully sure there isn't a problem with my Finale 26. I may reinstall it later today. When I try to fill the Aria player with my idea of where the instruments go, I get no sound at all. I tried to put all the percussion in one player instance. It didn't work. But it could be, or just might be, me!
At least there isn't any pressure on getting this one done. Thanx again.
EB
Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:31 pm

At first, I didn't realize that you had changed the Percussion to Toms at Bar 19. Once I saw that, I knew what the issue was. The Toms have separate samples for regular hits and rolls. However, adding the slashes mutes the rolls. That is odd HP behavior. So, in order to avoid that, I had to change the Articulation to a Shape Articulation, as HP doesn't recognize those. Understanding Sample Sets that have separate MIDI slots for Hits and Rolls is part of the learning curve. If one approaches Percussion in the old fashioned GM paradigm, then one will have Percussion that doesn't work as expected. Percussion sampling has developed into a whole new world. When Finale changed their setup to having Maps and Layouts, that just added another layer of frustration for those used to the old ways. Most Finale users, I've learned from spending years on various forums, are clueless to how to do percussion. They (MakeMusic) have given tools to help the user, but must users don't understand the tools, so it's as if the tools don't even exist, to many. Once those tools are mastered, then one can get pretty good percussion right out of the basic Finale sounds.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:57 pm

Here is what I did. I come to realize that with Finale you can't just write music as you would see it or print it. You must do a seperate sound file and that is what I did. I put each instrument on a seperate staff. Evert horn, every triangle and drum. Everything. The result is pretty good. I don't think I would have ever realized that if you hadn't basically suggested it. I also avoided the Aria player all together. It has bugs or something anyway. Or, perhaps my brain has bugs but what I am getting know is much better.

Thanx again
EB
Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.

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