Sound help

[ebiggs1]

I thought it might be nice to have a thread concerning sound output in Finale. Thanx to some forum members and now some of my own digging I have satisfied with the sound I am getting. Finale and Garritan can produce some pretty nice stuff.

Here is what I have done. First you must have a decent sound set up on your computer. A good sound card and some good speakers. I have a pair of JBL 305 Studio Monitors. I have a Behringer equalizer. If you don’t have a similar, equivalent or better, set up, you can forget good sound.

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I am running Windows 10 with 16 GB of Ram. Now forget the Aria player! Do not even go into it. On my Windows 10, 64-bit machine the Aria player does not fully work anyway. The Master and Master Effects are greyed out.

I assign a different bank to each instrument group. Woodwinds on bank 1, brass on bank 2, percussion on bank 3, etc. I also make a separate document for the sound and another for the notation output. Because I found it is best to put one and only one instrument on a staff. I. E., snare drum on separate staff, bass drum on a different separate staff, cymbals, too. I even put crash and ride on different staves if need be. Keep in mind Finale doesn’t have sounds for all percussion instruments so some will not sound no matter what. This is true even if you get the expensive add-on Garriatn sound packages. I have GPO3 and COMB2 plus what comes standard with Finale.

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Finally, you need a good sound converter. The wav file that Finale produces is large to huge. If you want to share it and/or make it more universal to others you need to convert it to a mp3 or some other universal format.
I have Audacity.

I might add, I have been with Finale since day one. I know a lot of you folks have too. My current opinion of Make Music is pretty low. I am pretty disgusted with them. They offer little to no technical help. My 2 cents and worth every penny!

If anyone has any tips to add please feel free to do so.

[ebiggs1]

BTW, just for kicks, Sibelius makes its own mp3. You do not need a converter.

[zuill]

The effects are greyed out because Finale now uses a different kind of effects setup, which is controlled in each bank of the Aria Player. It's been that way for several versions. The mixer in each bank controls the sends to the effects available there. There's Convolution or Ambience for the 2 choices of type. Then, you choose from the list for each.

With Finale, I export a wav file, then open it in Audacity, Normalize it, and then save as mp3.

Zuill

[zuill]

Is it possible to delete the extra Topic for this one? I guess it's a duplicate, but it keeps showing up as an unread post, but nothing is there. A bit annoying.

zuill

[motet]

I encountered that, too. I went to Board Index, then clicked Mark forums read and it disappeared.

[miker]

I deleted it a little while ago.

[ebiggs1]

The effects are greyed out because Finale now uses a different kind of effects setup, which is controlled in each bank of the Aria Player.

I have gotten a couple of responses why the VST Banks & Effects is the way it is. However, if your answer is correct and it may be I don't dispute, it is another black mark on MM. If you change the way the software works then by all means update the menus to reflect it. Don't just grey out the parts you decided to put elsewhere. How confusing is that?

The manual, or at least my manual, suggests the controls are useable!

"Effects. Each one of these dropdown menus displays the VST effects installed on your computer. Click the adjacent button to open the selected effect's interface and make changes. To reset the effect, use the Effects dropdown menu to select --- and reselect the effect.
Bypass. Check this box to temporarily omit the corresponding effect.
Volume • Clip. This volume slider applies to the volume of the selected bank of channels and their selected VST selection and effect(s). Finale illuminates the Clip indicator if clipping is detected. Clipping is detected if the signal goes beyond the bounds of a standard range. Click the clip indicator light to reset it.
Master Effects • Master Volume. Use these options to apply effects and volume to the master mix. Changes to this section apply to all banks.
Close. Click Close to apply your settings."

[zuill]

You might be correct. It could be that you can install extra effects that are not included with the Finale install, and those will show up there. In the old days, there were effects that were accessed through those buttons. When Finale incorporated effects into the Aria player, then those old effects were removed. Thus the greyed out buttons. However, I believe maybe 3rd party add-ons might be able to still be accessed through those buttons, once installed. Hopefully someone who uses 3rd party effects will chime in here.

Zuill

[ebiggs1]

However, that isn't what the Finale manual suggests, to me anyway. It seems to me they are talking program not add-ons or plugins. I hope there is a "chimer" also!

[zuill]

In 2014.5 and before you can click the little arrow and choose Garritan Ambience, then you can open the Garritan Ambience window. This can be done by the Bank, as well as in the Master slot. v25 and 26 got rid of that. The other 2 options are now available.

Zuill

[RVS Lee]

Hi Guys...

Re: Master effects section of the VST Banks & Effects dialogue...
This serves to route output from the 8 "player" banks to global effects & plugins; in practice these would all be 3rd party add-ons.
If you are using garritan instruments exclusively, then the added layer of processing is probably unnecessary. However, if you use other libraries as well then it comes in handy:
I mix and match GPO and NP3 instruments, and obviously I can't apply Aria reverb and EQ to the non-Aria banks. Instead, I turn off both Aria ambience and convo reverb, as well as the reverb in the Noteperformer player, and send the dry signals through a master reverb plugin that can be applied to both.

[ebiggs1]

... in practice these would all be 3rd party add-ons.

So you are saying the greyed out controls become active when Note Performer instruments are active. I did not see that when I demoed NP. I could have missed it though as I was not extremely impressed with NP over Garritan. The shut down per hour is really annoying and made testing more difficult, at least a PINTA, so I deleted NP.

BTW as long as we are talking 3rd party add-ons, are there any other sounds or effects you have tried? AU reverb 2 for instance?

[RVS Lee]

Sorry, I wasn't quite clear...
Neither Aria Player nor NP3 Player can be used as a master (Bank 0 - for everything) to add reverb or other effects to the other player's output. I happened to have an old convolution reverb library from waves central on my hard drive. When I pointed finale to that VST plugin, that is when the master effects panel became active.

Slightly OT - I saw your plaint about GPO percussion. Between the freebie GIfF, and GPO, there is actually a healthy variety of cymbal and other aux perc samples available. The problem is that the implementation and documentation are ATROCIOUS. I've had to create multiple custom input and layout maps just so that the sounds are consistently labelled from one end of the process to the other, and so that I know what midi pitch to play to get that sound!

With all that said, I have been able to get pretty solid results using GPO perc, and mixing directly in finale; I recently mocked up this composition - the perc is from GPO, the brass from NP3:
https://soundcloud.com/user-16252241

[ebiggs1]

I didn't see any instructions on how to install any "effects' plugin to Aria in the manual. Just putting the dll in the Aria player dll folder doesn't do it.
I totally agree the MM manual leaves a lot to the imagination. I may not be that imaginative!

[ebiggs1]

I recently mocked up this composition - the perc is from GPO, the brass from NP3:
https://soundcloud.com/user-16252241

Cool. The sound is great.

[RVS Lee]

First...
Glad you like "Extrada"! I'm still looking for a live premiere, and if you have some rock-star horn players...

Second...
Forgive me if any of this is obvious, but just to start with the basics: the effects I am discussing do not add functionality to the Aria player. Instead they are separate programs that take the output from aria and fiddle with it. (So adding the .dll file from your effects plugin to an aria subfolder wouldn't do anything; aria doesn't know what to do with it.) Finale is controlling the data flow, first sending midi info to aria, and then sending the audio output from aria on to the effect - the next link in the "chain."
So what you need is for finale to know that your effect plugin is available to add to the chain:

On my system using default installations, finale looks for vst plugins here:
C:\program files\common files\vst2\ (for .dll files)
and here
C:\program files\common files\vst3\ (for more recent .vst3 files)

BTW, what effects plugin are you trying to install?

[ebiggs1]

Actually none. I was reading the Finale manual and they show a reverb effects in the Aria player. I went ahead and purchased Note Performer 3 so they owe you a commission.
I am also tromping at the but to get back to playing. I have a community concert band that has all but quit since the kung flu virus.
I do a few charts for it and some some KU and Baker University. Plus Desoto Brass Band in Desoto Kansas. Currently working on Trombone Christmas Book 2 Jr.

What is the instrumentation of your "Extrada"?

[RVS Lee]

So... as I thought I mentioned (but didn't, at least not explicitly)... there is a pretty sophisticated set of basic mixing tools (reverb, EQ) built into the aria player. If you haven't found them yet:
Ctl-Alt-i (banks and effects pop up)
pencil/edit button next to one of the Aria banks (you're now showing one instance of the player- there is a separate instance for each bank you're using)

Probably when aria player opens, you'll be looking at a mixing panel, which you should ignore; score manager and the mixing panel in finale will override it anyway! But..
on the right side of the window are buttons for controls, effects, and settings. Choose effects:

Aria player has two different ways of adding reverb: an old-fashioned unit labelled 'ambience' and a more sophisticated 'convolution' unit. Don't use both at the same time. (BTW, the documentation on the differences between ambience and convolution is one of the few useful parts of the GPO manual.)

The quickest way to get a sense of the possibilities is to choose 'convolution' and audit a score using different presets. (You can keep the aria player window(s) open while you initiate playback in finale.)

As I *did* say explicitly... if you are only using garritan/aria sounds, the master effects section of 'banks and effects' is probably superfluous; you don't need to add reverb through a separate plugin, because you can add it at the bank level directly in aria. Just remember to choose the same reverb settings in every bank!

[RVS Lee]

Re: "Extrada"

6441/T, snare (a2 ad lib), field drum (a2 ad lib), BD, cymbals, tam tam, chimes
The horn parts really are killer - 2 players with high C's , and 2 super low specialists
4th tpt is in D
NB - 'Extrada' is an explicitly political work by a lifelong ('60s) liberal.
email to richard@vslmusic.com; I'd be delighted to send you the score.

[Jetcopy]

... Just remember to choose the same reverb settings in every bank!

A caveat first, I do my fine tuning for playback in a DAW, not Finale. But I disagree with this statement. Reverb settings should reflect the seating positioning of the instruments. Basically, in an orchestral piece for instance, the strings are seated near the front of the orchestra and the percussion is in back. This means that to retain the perceived positioning of the orchestra in you audio files, the strings should have less reverb applied to them than the percussion does.

Depending on what you need the playback for, this nitpicking might be overkill. IMO, if you're going to bother to add reverb, you might as well use it correctly to maximize it's benefit.

[ebiggs1]

Yeah, looking at that I doubt it is a good candidate for my Shawnee Concert Band. I try to keep them in the grade 3 level. Now that I have NP3 and really tryin git I am pretty satisfied with the playback, It is good for my needs. But I will keep experimenting. Thanx, so much for the info.

The next area to explore is the conversion to mp3.

[ebiggs1]

I finally got this reply from MM.

David Cusick (MakeMusic)
Sep 9, 2020, 8:58 AM MDT
Hi Ernest,

Thanks for reaching out to us about this. I apologize for the delay in responding back to your request. We are experiencing a large increase in contacts recently and are doing our best to get back to everyone as quickly as we can.

The ARIA Player and version 1.959 that installs with Finale v26 is a 64 bit app. The main difference that you would se between Finale 2014.5 and v26 in the VST Banks and Effects window is the absence of the Garitan Ambience plug-in's availability in the Effects slots.

Starting in v25, the Garritan Ambience was installed as a send effect within the ARIA Player rather than a separate plug-in that can be accessed within the VST Banks and Effects window. All other effects that you would see available in the drop-down menus here would be third-party plug-ins. Is there any in particular that you would expect to see here that you are not?
David Cusick | Notation and Garritan Product Specialist | MakeMusic, Inc.

It is as we suspected. They just confirmed it.