Tempo marking incorrect with dotted quarter

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Paul Brainard
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Post by Paul Brainard » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:13 pm

Hi all, just updated to 26.3.1.643 on mac and have run into what seems to be a bug - haven't noticed it before but not 100% sure it didn't exist in the previous flavor of v26. Using a tempo marking expression with a dotted quarter and "Match playback to metronome text", I found that it was setting the tempo for a quarter note. I had to change the playback to "set to value" for it to work. . .


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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:04 pm

Paul Brainard,

I am unable to reproduce your problem.
For me the tempo marking plays back correctly.

See the attached Finale document.
TempoMarkingWithDottedQuarter.musx

My steps:

Expression Selection.
Click on the category Tempo Marks, to select it.
Click the button {Create Tempo Mark…}.
In the Expression Designer, in the pop up menu Insert Note, choose {Dotted Quarter Note}.
Then, type the remanining text characters: {Space = Space 1 2 0}.

In the Playback chiclet no steps were necessary.
Finale automatically selected {Match Playback to Metronome Marking Text}.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Paul Brainard
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Post by Paul Brainard » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:13 pm

I had just chosen the pre-defined marking for a dotted quarter, added the mm value I wanted, then set the "match to text" option under playback. The option to manually choose the note value is then grayed out - so I assumed it was not applicable & the marking would take this info from the note used in the expression. Apparently not, so you have to uncheck the "match playback" option and set this value to match what is already in the expression - or set it first before checking that option. Doing this does resolve my problem, I guess it just seems a little unclear. . . thanks!

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:08 pm

Yes, the Playback tab dialog is poorly laid out--it looks like Type is a subheading of Match, but it's one or the other. Should be two radio buttons instead of a checkbox.

Back to the original problem, are you sure you didn't insert a quarter note when creating the mark and then typed the dot, rather than inserting a dotted quarter? Or, the dot is in the text font instead of the music font? Or, there's a stray space somewhere?

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:20 pm

If we could see the misbehaving file, or sample with this wrong behavior, I think we might be able to troubleshoot.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:33 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:08 pm
Yes, the Playback tab dialog is poorly laid out--it looks like Type is a subheading of Match, but it's one or the other. Should be two radio buttons instead of a checkbox.

Back to the original problem, are you sure you didn't insert a quarter note when creating the mark and then typed the dot, rather than inserting a dotted quarter? Or, the dot is in the text font instead of the music font? Or, there's a stray space somewhere?
The dot can be added afterward, and Finale should recognize it.

Zuill
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Paul Brainard
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Post by Paul Brainard » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:51 am

Ok here is a new file that demonstrates what happens. Initial tempo set in playback controls, dotted q=172. Two measures later, tempo mark based on pre-defined expression sets dotted q=172, but as you hear the click slows down to q=172.

As I created this (the same way as when I originally ran into the issue) I noticed that the playback tab for the expression defaults to "none" for type, but when you select "match expression text" it changes to "tempo" and "quarter note" (in spite of being a dotted quarter in the expression definition.) So at that point I guess you have to manually de-select "match" and change it to the correct note value, then re-select "match" - or else set the type before selecting match, if you remember to.

(also I should note that the original file where I ran into this does have an initial tempo marking, but that doesn't seem to affect the behavior of the later one - which is not just the same one again. . .)
Last edited by Paul Brainard on Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Paul Brainard
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Post by Paul Brainard » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:04 pm

Peter - yes if I manually create the expression from scratch and specify the note, it does set the correct value for type under playback. Also I notice that the pre-defined tempo marks vary between the Engraved/Maestro and Handwritten documents - only the Broadway has these, obviously they have different libraries associated with them.

Also, checking the other pre-defined ones in Broadway, they are all set to type "none" by default, so I suppose this is a shortcoming of those, combined with a less-than intuitive interface for specifying that option afterwards.

Thanks for the help!

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:58 pm

When you created the expression, did you click the Insert Note button to create the dotted quarter note?

Zuill
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Paul Brainard
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Post by Paul Brainard » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:41 am

No I think I have mentioned a couple times I used a pre-defined expression. At least for me there is a series of them with 1/8 note =, 1/4= 1/2= etc. . . are these not standard? I see them in a document based on Handwritten style but not Engraver. Finale has never yet brought any library customizations forward in an upgrade so I can't imagine these are not stock! In any case, they all seem to have been created without the type being set to the corresponding note from the expression - and as I said, when you check the "match playback to expression text" option this changes to quarter note and gets grayed out. . . as I also said, if I do create one from scratch and insert the note (as you describe) then it does set the type correctly. I just am not in the habit of doing it that way since these expressions already exist.

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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:17 am

If you insert a quarter note in the expression dialog with that Broadway copyist font, it looks like this, which is likely why the one that's defined doesn't work. Nobody thought to test it, I guess. So you need to set it explicitly in the playback tab.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:38 am

Okay. I now see where there is interesting behavior. With the posted file, I went into the expression definition and unchecked "Match playback...". I manually changed the note value to Dotted Quarter Note. I then rechecked the "Match playback..." button, and in the grayed out note value slot, it changed it back to Quarter Note, which tells me that Finale is interpreting the dotted quarter note in the text of the expression as a quarter note. Definitely odd behavior.

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Paul Brainard
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Post by Paul Brainard » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:45 am

Yes that is what I discovered as the fix. I would say that it is ignoring whatever note is displayed in the expression and going with what is specified in the playback, which defaults to quarter note (I haven't experimented with the other pre-defined ones but I would wager that's the case. . .) Maybe this is how it always works, but usually the playback is set in alignment with the expression.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:06 am

Finale only seems to match the playback to the text when a Music font is used for the note. When a Text font is used, that feature is confused, and doesn't function properly.

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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:48 pm

For "Match playback to metronome marking text" to work, you must use the "Music Font" as defined in the Tempo Marks category for the note, and you must use the character which is generated by the Insert Note button for the note.

The problem with Paul's file is that the expression (quarter)(dot)=172 is written entirely in the defined "Text Font". There is a quarter note in that font, but the playback mechanism won't recognize it since it's not in the music font and not the right character code.

The Tempo Marks category in that file does have a a Music Font set that will work. To fix the expression, you could delete the existing quarter note and insert a new one, being sure to set the font to the Music Font before using the Insert Note button, as shown below. It's rather ugly to my eye how they've got it set up, though (you could try increasing the Music Font point size, or switch to a better font).

I'm guessing the template or whatever it is that Paul used to create his file is older than the "match playback" feature, and that's the reason the expression is all in the Text Font. MakeMusic should fix that.

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Post by Paul Brainard » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:33 pm

In both cases (original & test for upload here) I walked through the startup wizard to create the file. The pre-defined tempo marks are present in the Broadway Copyist font, as far as I know they always have been - I just upgraded Finale and didn't do anything to copy old libraries over, and in my experience it doesn't do that for you. But, they may well have been created in that font collection long ago. . .

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:03 pm

The rehearsal mark in your file is entirely Finale Copyist Text, as I said. To fix the issue, delete the dotted quarter and re-insert it by pressing Insert Note. That will insert the note from Broadway Copyist, and "Match playback to metronome marking" will then work.

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Post by Paul Brainard » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:31 pm

I'm just saying it wasn't from a template of mine, Finale seems to come with those markings as they are.

It seems easier to just set the type in the playback than to mess with the fonts. . .

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:37 pm

Exactly. They should include in the documentation the caveat about some of the stock expressions not honoring the tempo when the option is selected to use the text from the expression, as it doesn't work 100% of the time. I generally set the tempo manually, as that is always bound to work properly.

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:24 pm

It works 100% of the time if you create the note with Insert Note. I've never had a problem.

Indeed, MakeMusic should update that ancient template; it's certainly confusing.

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