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Re: portamento
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:44 pm
by Anders Hedelin
Also I had these "conversations" with composers when I was a student. Only, that I staged them between the composers themselves - Mahler, Sibelius, Ravel and Stravinsky fx. Now I can even take part in some conversations myself.
About the ambiguities of music notation: that's just how it is, and thank god for that. How boring it would be if music notation were as unambiguous as a programming code (I didn't say infallible, just unambiguous).
Re: portamento
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:25 pm
by Djard
Taking a second look at the OP, I get the impression that the composer is trying to abbreviate the phrase, perhaps to simplify reading.
If I wanted to ensure this particular section is played as later described, I would write the individual notes, except for the larger interval, where I would use gliss. and add the slur across all the notes; otherwise the part needs a rewrite.
I may be mistaken, but much of the discussion in this thread tends to disregard terms defined in text books. Gould refers to portato as a microtonal bowing technique. She is inclined to view gliss. as a chromatic slide, which has always been my understanding. If the terms portamento and glissando are used interchangeably then music dictionaries become obsolete and communication between musicians eisegetic.
Re: portamento
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:29 pm
by zuill
This is a piece for piano, so bowing technique would be irrelevant. There isn't a need for glissando. It is all about the connection, or lack thereof, from note to note. No sliding involved.
Zuill
Re: portamento
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:22 pm
by Anders Hedelin
Djard wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:25 pm
I may be mistaken, but much of the discussion in this thread tends to disregard terms defined in text books. Gould refers to
portato as a microtonal bowing technique. She is inclined to view gliss. as a chromatic slide, which has always been my understanding. If the terms portamento and glissando are used interchangeably then music dictionaries become obsolete and communication between musicians eisegetic.
You must have a very creative reading. Take another look at Gould and the terms we've been discussing! (There's an index at the end, easy to use.)
Re: portamento
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:43 pm
by musicus
Correcto!
zuill wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:29 pm
This is a piece for piano, so bowing technique would be irrelevant. There isn't a need for glissando. It is all about the connection, or lack thereof, from note to note. No sliding involved.
Zuill
Re: portamento
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:45 pm
by musicus
But how do musical dictionaries get written in the first place? Are there
no biases there?
Djard wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:25 pm
Taking a second look at the OP, I get the impression that the composer is trying to abbreviate the phrase, perhaps to simplify reading.
If I wanted to ensure this particular section is played as later described, I would write the individual notes, except for the larger interval, where I would use gliss. and add the slur across all the notes; otherwise the part needs a rewrite.
I may be mistaken, but much of the discussion in this thread tends to disregard terms defined in text books. Gould refers to
portato as a microtonal bowing technique. She is inclined to view gliss. as a chromatic slide, which has always been my understanding. If the terms portamento and glissando are used interchangeably then music dictionaries become obsolete and communication between musicians eisegetic.
Re: portamento
Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:54 pm
by Anders Hedelin
musicus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:45 pm
But how do musical dictionaries get written in the first place? Are there
no biases there?
The music dictionaries I have on my bookshelf, one American, one Swedish, are both correct in this respect. No "biases" there.
Plus Gould, of course. Likewise unbiased.
The problem is that you must be able to read without bias.
Re: portamento
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:30 am
by Jay Emmes
So, you dismiss the New Grove, the Dolmetsch and the Riemann as non authoritative? Wow, speaking of 'bias'.
There should be little to no surprise that within a region, within a community there is a consensus on the meaning of words (this applies not only to musical terms, but to any means of communication, linguistically and otherwise). People agree upon and adjust to a meaning as it is used within that region, that community. These people are often trained or educated by the same people (who in turn themselves have been trained or educated by the same people, etc., etc.). One should hope there is a consensus, otherwise communication would fall short every single time.
However, it is undeniable that there is confusion on a larger scale. Avoidable confusion.
Re: portamento
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:08 pm
by musicus
I didn't "dismiss" any of these sources.
Jay Emmes wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:30 am
So, you dismiss the New Grove, the Dolmetsch and the Riemann as non authoritative? Wow, speaking of 'bias'.
There should be little to no surprise that within a region, within a community there is a consensus on the meaning of words (this applies not only to musical terms, but to any means of communication, linguistically and otherwise). People agree upon and adjust to a meaning as it is used within that region, that community. These people are often trained or educated by the same people (who in turn themselves have been trained or educated by the same people, etc., etc.). One should hope there is a consensus, otherwise communication would fall short every single time.
However, it is undeniable that there is confusion on a larger scale. Avoidable confusion.
Re: portamento
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:39 pm
by Anders Hedelin
I had enough of this highly-strung nonsense.
(Not directed at you, musicus.)
Thank you and good bye.
Re: portamento
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:38 pm
by musicus
Thank you, Anders.
Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:39 pm
I had enough of this highly-strung nonsense.
(Not directed at you, musicus.)
Thank you and good bye.
Re: portamento
Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:34 pm
by Jay Emmes
musicus wrote: ↑Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:08 pm
I didn't "dismiss" any of these sources.
But that's exactly what you did. I have shown you that there are distinctly different definitions given in these dictionaries for one single term, which you dismiss. These terms are obviously not understood 'universally' otherwise there would not be this discussion in the first place and there would not be more than one distinctly different definition in multiple dictionaries.
Sorry to hear that you abandon this discussion. A discussion should be a dialog with rational arguments back and forth, not a personal attack on the discussion partner ("inexperienced", "out of touch with reality", "highly-strung nonsense").
Re: portamento
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:50 am
by Djard
Regarding the difference between glissando and portamento, I spoke with a professor of music at the Newcastle conservatorium of music, also with another at the University of Tasmania, in Hobart. Then I read all the assertions on the topic at The Vienna Symphonic Library.
There seems to be no clear consensus.
Some say portamento is microtonal, while glissando is chromatic, which differentiation appeals to me (nice to have two terms denoting two things). But evidently many authorities use the terms interchangeably.
I have a Ph.D. and five languages under my belt, and believe I can comprenhend what I read. But I must admit that with respect to port. and gliss., I am still confused.
Maybe someone can demonstrate in a Finale document how the two differ, especially how port. is possible on piano.
Re: portamento
Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:25 am
by musicus
At the moment I can't put it into Finale, but the use of the slur/staccato combo is frequent in the piano literature. One example is Beethoven's piano sonata #10, Andante, meas.49 (and elsewhere in that mvt.)
With 50+ years of piano playing I have little confusion about how to interpret it. It is simply this: detached but not as detached as staccato. Is that precise in a mathematical way? Of course not. Incidentally, forte, piano, mezzo piano, etc. are (as you may know) not definitive qualities, but relative. And somewhat subjective if one adds the ingredient known as artistic freedom. Sorry but I had to mention it. BTW,. glissando on the piano is very easy to achieve as long as most of the notes are white ones. On black keys some medical treatment might be needed afterwards.
Djard wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:50 am
Regarding the difference between glissando and portamento, I spoke with a professor of music at the Newcastle conservatorium of music, also with another at the University of Tasmania, in Hobart. Then I read all the assertions on the topic at The Vienna Symphonic Library.
There seems to be no clear consensus.
Some say portamento is microtonal, while glissando is chromatic, which differentiation appeals to me (nice to have two terms denoting two things). But evidently many authorities use the terms interchangeably.
I have a Ph.D. and five languages under my belt, and believe I can comprenhend what I read. But I must admit that with respect to port. and gliss., I am still confused.
Maybe someone can demonstrate in a Finale document how the two differ, especially how port. is possible on piano.
Re: portamento
Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:36 am
by Djard
That helps. Thank you.