how to stop Finale from duplicating shapes

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meb
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Post by meb » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:44 pm

I have created about ten new shapes in the last five years. When I want to choose a shape for a new expression, I have 936 shapes (after deleting about 50), most of them duplicates of duplicates of duplicates.

When I try to delete large groups of these shapes, I sometimes get an error message saying the shape is in use in the file (even though it is not in use.)

Is this a bug? Anyone know how to stop this useless replicating of shapes?

This is true of Fin 26, Fin 25, and 2014.5.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:20 pm

When you've created a Shape Expression, and then assign a Metatool to it, there is an advantage: each occurrence can be independently adjusted, and all the other aren't adjusted. This is an extremely powerful level of control. Another option is to duplicate the Expression itself, and apply each duplicate where needed. Those are separate Expressions, so also independently adjustable. In either case, there is a new shape created for each duplicate. Same with the Metatool approach. Each time you apply the expression via the Metatool, a duplicate shape is created. If you try to delete one, if it is in use, then you'll lose it where applied. So, don't delete any of those. You applied those where needed, and don't want to mess up those assignments. There might be hundreds of the same shape, due to this paradigm, but each one is essential. This addresses the word "useless" from the description of them. The are useful.

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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:39 pm

If you apply it without a metatool, I take it it's not duplicated but rather shared? You can probably avoid the metatool with a keyboard macro or script.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:43 pm

The problem with a shared expression is that adjusting it in one place adjusts it in all places. I know your suggestion is not concerned with that, but how to apply it without duplicating the shape. Copy/paste with the filter might also be considered, I guess. But my reply gave the underlying philosophy as to the various features available in Finale.

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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:32 am

I guess it depends on the shape, whether it's something that you'd adjust or something that's always a fixed size.

I think this would be better implemented by having whether to duplicate it or not be an attribute of the shape or its assignment. It seems odd to tie that to whether it was applied with a metatool or not.
Last edited by motet on Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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meb
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Post by meb » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:32 am

Hi and thanks (a lot). Please excuse if I've already submitted this.

I think I was not clear above. I want to create one instance of Shape N, and I want to use it in multiple files. It is FINALE that creates the duplicates, not me. So eventually I may have 17 copies of Shape N, all of which look alike and accomplish the same thing. But I created only ONE version of Shape N. Finale did the rest.

Here's today's illustration:

Today I created a harp extended technique shape. I then duplicated it (because my file keeps crashing, so I don't trust it any more).

The first shape was item 135. I found the duplicate, below a thousand empty boxes (not an exaggeration), at about 1199. To my usually random but occasionally sequential mind (joke), this is insanity.

So based on your expertise, I have to assume that Finale has some sort of "reason" for "creating" 1000 empty shapes, but why? Is this because the file has gone buggy, or is there some good reason?

Also, I really just want use the same shape many times?
If I create
Harp Shape A,
why do I need
Harp shape A(b . . . x)

in subsequent compositions, since the shape represents exactly the same technique everywhere? I don't see multiples of fortissimo, for example.

Hope you have the magic word. :)

M.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:01 am

Since it's hard to understand exactly what you are seeing, it could be we might need to see a sample file to examine. Possibly there's corruption going on.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:11 am

I just opened the default file, created a Shape Expression, duplicated the expression, and in the shapes, there was the first shape, slot 119, and then the second, slot 120. If I choose to create a new expression and choose a shape, and select shape 120, the new expression now uses shape 120. If I look in the shapes, there are still only 119 and 120. There aren't hundreds of extra shapes or blank shapes.

So, I'm guessing there is either file corruption or program corruption. Either way, it might be time to file a support case with MakeMusic.

Zuill
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meb
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Post by meb » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:26 am

OK. At least you have confirmed that it is possible to create one instance of a shape that will not be duplicated automatically. I'm going to do some trouble-shooting and see if I can figure why this redundancy is happening.

One possibility is that when I load a library, the shapes are duplicated even though I am expecting only shape expressions to be loaded instead of duplicate shapes. That doesn't explain a thousand blank "shapes," of course.

Would you think I should just save a library of a single shape? (A pain, because I'd have to save a lib. of shape expressions, load it into a non-library blank file, trim off all the other expressions, save it again -- pretty klunky. There's no way around that, is there?).

Anyway, many thanks.
PS I have always enjoyed your motto -- gets a laugh every time I see it. Gonna share it with engineer husband. :lol:
Cheers.
M.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:55 am

I guess i missed the detail that you were talking about loading a library. Now, my approach is to delete all the shapes or expressions I don't want in the library before saving it. To be careful, save a copy of your your file that has the shapes you want in the library, and then delete all the shapes you don't want. Since this is a copy of the file, you can delete any shapes where a warning pops up. Save the library with just the custom shapes you want to be able to load into other documents.

By the way, if you have a Shape Expression, which has a shape in it that either you created or was already in the document, and you want it in another document, you don't need to save a library. Just copy the measure with that in it, and paste it into the other document. The expression and the shape will now be in that other document.

I don't recall where I got that motto. I didn't create it. I wish I could give proper credit for it, but I just don't remember. My one regret is that I don't always live up to it.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:42 am

Caution:
If you need to save a library of shape expressions, then in the Save Library dialog you must select, not only Shape Expressions, but also Shapes.
If you select only Shape Expressions, then the library will not contain the shapes used in the shape expressions.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:31 pm

zuill wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:55 am

I don't recall where I got that motto. I didn't create it. I wish I could give proper credit for it, but I just don't remember. My one regret is that I don't always live up to it.

Zuill
Follow-up: it looks like this quote originally came from Aesop.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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