A notation question

[sPretzel]

Hi. Not a Finale question per se but a notation one.
In an instructional context, how do you prefer to notate a mode, for example E Dorian? My concern is the preferred key signature to use.
1- Would you write it in its parent key signature D major?
2- Would you write it in its parallel minor key signature E minor?
3- Would you write it in its parallel major key signature E major?
4- Something else? What?
Thanks.

[zuill]

Another option is no key signature and indicate all the chromatic notes.

Zuill

[motet]

Seems like it has two sharps F# and C#, so I would use that. Don't think of it as "D major," though.

[sPretzel]

So both of you highlight its differences with C major? It seems there is no good way out of this in notation! I'd like to highlight the b3 and the b6, comparing it to A major (I prefer that over A minor) but that doesn't come through in notation well.
Notes are A B C D E F# G A.

I should correct that as I was rightfully called out by Motet:
I'd like to highlight the b3 and the b6, comparing it to E major (I prefer that over E minor) but that doesn't come through in notation well.
Notes are E F# G A B C# D E.

[bkshepard]

A minor key is also a mode and we typically use the relative major key signature for that with chromatic alternations in the notation as needed. Therefore, I recommend continuing to use the same practice for other modes?

[sPretzel]

A minor key is also a mode and we typically use the relative major key signature for that with chromatic alternations in the notation as needed. Therefore, I recommend continuing to use the same practice for other modes?

So you'd go with (1), D major key signature.

[motet]

Notes are A B C D E F# G A.

I would call that a Dorian scale on A, not E, and use one sharp in the key signature. Forget "major" and "minor."

[sPretzel]

You're right! Let me write that down again:
E F# G A B C# D E

Blimey.

[zuill]

A couple of options.

Zuill

[bkshepard]

So you'd go with (1), D major key signature.

Yes, that seems to be the most common practice for key signatures and modes. I understand the need for people to sonically hear the difference between say, E-major, E-minor, and E-dorian, but we traditionally use the key signature of the relative major key for notation purposes.

[ebiggs1]

If it was not an “instructional” thing I would not make any mention of it at all. Write as normal and use the appropriate accidentals.

In my opinion Dorian is closely related to the natural minor scale (Aeolian.) So I would write it in E minor and use an accidental to make all of the C to C#.

[Peter Thomsen]

… In my opinion Dorian is closely related to the natural minor scale (Aeolian.) So I would write it in E minor and use an accidental to make all of the C to C#.

Notating a key signature of 1 sharp (= e minor), and then using an accidental “to make all of the C to C#” could definitely be the solution - in some cases.

However, there may also be cases where the solution could be a key signature of 2 sharps (= e dorian), e. g. an old tune from 1400-something.

For a tune that old a dorian key signature would make better sense.

At that time Major and minor did not yet exist.

In 1547 the Swiss music theorist Heinrich Glarean added Ionian and aeolian to the modes, but their modern (chord function T - S - D) counterparts Major and minor came into being during the last half of the 1600s.
Major as a fusion of Lydian, Ionian and Mixolydian - minor as a fusion of dorian, aeolian and phrygian.


I am not sure what the OP sPretzel means by the words “instructional context”?
At what music theory level are the students, and what exactly are they supposed to learn in this particular “instructional context”?

[motet]

A time signature which minimizes accidentals seems best to me.

[zuill]

Key Signature. That's why I suggested D major for E Dorian.

Zuill

[ebiggs1]

...Dorian is closely related to the natural minor scale (Aeolian.) So I would write it in E minor ..."

Of course I guess it depends on whether we are teaching music theory now or music theory history. If it is music theory I think the minor relationship makes it easier for a student to grasp. I also realize that if you ask 5 different music theory teachers you're likely to get 5 different but correct answers. Personally I love discussing this and seeing what and how others do it.

[zuill]

Most of what I learned about music theory came after college. In other words, had they explained things more clearly, I would have had a greater understanding early on. With modes, they tried to teach us by the note to note intervals (M2 or m2). That was tedious. I realized that with any Major scale, Dorian starts on the supertonic, Phrygian on the mediant, etc. That was so much easier to understand. Thus, my suggestion to use the major key signature, and then go for the scale tone. Dorian on G# is much easier to grasp when starting on the supertonic of the F# major scale. After all, that's how we learned the Aeolian mode (Relative Natural Minor scale). Start on the submediant of the Major scale.

My 2 cents.

Zuill

[Anders Hedelin]

To go back to the OP's first post. If it's about an instructional presentation of different modes, I would choose no key signature, and accidentals for every note. At this basic stage there's not much use in telling which scale this or that mode might be related to. That insight may better be formed in the student's head when having grasped what a Dorian etc. scale is, quite factually.

[motet]

If it's about an instructional presentation of different modes, then use white keys, i.e. Dorian starting on D.

[Anders Hedelin]

To be even more instructive, I for my part, would start without any accidentals at all, presenting the old modes (including Ionian and Aeolian). Then comparing them to other scales/modes (C major and A minor in the first place). Last stage: transposing them, with accidentals on every note and/or key signatures.

[ebiggs1]

... if you ask 5 different music theory teachers you're likely to get 5 different but correct answers.

See?

[Anders Hedelin]

Then you'll have to use your own head. Tough.

[David Ward]

I've never been a music teacher, unless you include the occasional (usually mature) composition student who has sought me out for help (plus a very little brass teaching long ago). However, it would never have occurred to me to notate these modes when they are listed as scales other than as they would appear on white notes with the addition of whatever key signature is appropriate for their transposition up or down from their white note form (ie a perfect 5th down from the white note incarnation, add key signature of one flat &c). However, when they are used in a real piece of music, the notation must surely depend entirely on the wider context (as would any other use of a possible key signature or its absence).