gaming the system

[ebiggs1]

Finale is far from feature-complete. It remains the only major software app that does not do collision avoidance ... in real time, not after remembering to run some plug-in.

Totally agree. Been lobbying and asking for that for years. Until then, and perhaps never, the reason I purchased Perfect Layout. You do have to remember to run it afterwards and you score looks like a jumble but PL fixes it all in the end.

[ebiggs1]

Well, in that case, Illustrator is a fully 'mature' music notation program, because you can visually achieve any result there, too.

I really don't understand that opinion. I have never used 'Illustrator' nor do I know what it is or does. But I would submit that making current feature more automatic is not a new feature. It is simply a different way of doing something that already can be done.

Perhaps the plug-ins are a good example. They don't do anything that can't be done they just make it easier. Like the new "Select subject" in the new version of Photoshop. I could always select the subject in my old PS but now you click on that "NEW" feature and PS tried to figure out the subject and then select it. Sometimes it does a pretty good job and sometimes not so good. It is a new feature?

There is just so much that a photo editor can do and there is just so much that a music notation program can do. The bug swats notwithstanding of course. That would be welcome!

[motet]

It's possible to use Finale in such a way that there are very few collisions.

[BuonTempi]

I have never used 'Illustrator' nor do I know what it is or does. But I would submit that making current feature more automatic is not a new feature. It is simply a different way of doing something that already can be done.

It's a graphic artwork program, for drawing. If 'being able to do everything manually' is your definition of 'mature', then a drawing package is a mature music notation app. You just have to calculate out the spacing manually and move every element by hand.

Similarly, Photoshop's clone and patch tools are just bloat, because you can edit the pixels manually with the pencil tool.

This is, of course, a reductio ad absurdam. The whole point of computers is to perform tasks automatically, which would otherwise be tedious manual work.

I would expect a 'mature' notation app to be conceptually sophisticated, comprehensive in its feature set, and yes, with significant automation. I don't think Finale is 'fully mature' by that definition. Whether automation is a new feature or not - it's certainly a welcome feature.

It's possible to use Finale in such a way that there are very few collisions.

2 inch gaps between the staves! That's a weak defence of a major deficiency in Finale's capabilities. People have been crying out for Finale to improve its collision avoidance ever since Sibelius introduced Magnetic Spacing in 2009. And Vertical Justification is an essential timesaver -- as said, present in every other tool. To dismiss these features as only necessary in certain edge cases is disingenuous.

[motet]

I'm not dismissing it, and vertical spacing of staves is one area I do have to do by hand. I would like Finale to do more. But putting dynamics, hairpins, rehearsal marks and text on top of one another and on top of notes and accents, are things that can generally be avoided will out too much trouble.

[ebiggs1]

... I would submit that making current feature more automatic is not a new feature. It is simply a different way of doing something that already can be done.

I guess MM should boast new plug-ins as new features to Finale? We will just have to agreeably disagree on this topic.

[peterqd]

Finale is far from feature-complete. It remains the only major software app that does not do collision avoidance (Ok, slurs and artics...)

The thing I like best about Finale is that [almost] everything is capable of being customised if you know where to look, unlike many other programs which assume how you want to do things and you can't do it any other way. I can't think of why I would actually want artics and slurs to collide, but Finale allows me to do it if I do.

So the collision problems are not a fault in the software, but in the out-of-the-box settings that someone at MM has chosen and which you can change. Time spent investigating and experimenting with these can overcome many issues. For example, in SmartShape Tool > SmartShape Placement you can change the end position of slurs away from the centre of the notehead, which allows space for articulations.

[ebiggs1]

I can't think of why I would actually want artics and slurs to collide, but Finale allows me to do it if I do.

Here, here on the ability to do whatever it is you want in Finale.
However, if MM was able, which I have doubts, to feature collision avoidance, I can't imagine they would do so without a way to turn it off. The only thing or reason I can think of as to why they don't and also why they don't fix known bugs is, they can't. Either technically or monetarily, the end result is they can't.

[BuonTempi]

The thing I like best about Finale is that [almost] everything is capable of being customised if you know where to look, unlike many other programs which assume how you want to do things and you can't do it any other way. I can't think of why I would actually want artics and slurs to collide, but Finale allows me to do it if I do.

So the collision problems are not a fault in the software, but in the out-of-the-box settings that someone at MM has chosen and which you can change. Time spent investigating and experimenting with these can overcome many issues.

There are plenty of widely accepted musical norms that Finale could safely assume and help with, and then let me crash things together manually, if I wanted to. That's what most other apps do. Instead, Finale crashes things together, and gives me the flexibility to produce a decent result if I know what I'm doing.

I dispute that collision problems in Finale are simply a matter of bad defaults.

Will Finale automatically move a piano staff further apart if I add dynamics and fingerings in the middle? No. Other apps do that, and let me manually squeeze the grand stave into a big mess if that's the result I'm after.

Here's a fairly anodyne passage. Does Finale adjust the position of the passing notes? No.

It gives me the 'flexibility' to spend time manually adjusting each one, when other software will just automatically position them correctly, according to defined parameters. If I wanted to have them colliding, I could manually adjust them to do so. Surely that's the better way round?

[motet]

I'm not dismissing [collision avoidance], and vertical spacing of staves is one area I do have to do by hand. I would like Finale to do more. But putting dynamics, hairpins, rehearsal marks and text on top of one another and on top of notes and accents, are things that can generally be avoided will out too much trouble.

[BuonTempi]

But putting dynamics, hairpins, rehearsal marks and text on top of one another and on top of notes and accents, are things that can generally be avoided without too much trouble.

If you're really arguing against making improvements in this area, then ... you have the notation app that you deserve.

I would hope that we would all want Finale to help us get the best output onto the page with no trouble at all. Not 'a level of trouble that I've come to accept'.

Someone recently asked if there was a steep learning curve between Finale 2011 and v26. There's no gradient at all! In a decade! That's not a sign of maturity: it's a sign of rigor mortis.

[motet]

I'm not against making improvements in this area.

[SickBoy]

If I had to point a finger at anything, it would be the Peaksware purchase and the move to Colorado.

Having seen this transition from the inside, I can assure you that the vector that the company was on from 2012 to 2014 would have led to a far worse place for Finale than it is now.

[ebiggs1]

I'm not against making improvements in this area.

It is coming across that you are. You seem, I could be wrong, against any improvement over what is there if it can be done somehow. Even if you have to use a seperate program to accomplish it.

[ebiggs1]

That's not a sign of maturity: it's a sign of rigor mortis.

I wish I had said that because it is spot on true.

[ebiggs1]

miker wrote:
If I had to point a finger at anything, it would be the Peaksware purchase and the move to Colorado.

Again, totally agree. It all comes down to money and MM has placed a great deal of time and money into Smart Music and this silly web sharing thing. (Is it still a thing?) Perhaps after they recoup from that, Finale will get some attention.

I know most of the "regulars" on the forum are not music teachers but I can tell you the new Smart Music is far better than it was and a real saver in these times.

[motet]

I'm not against making improvements in this area.

It is coming across that you are. You seem, I could be wrong, against any improvement over what is there if it can be done somehow. Even if you have to use a seperate program to accomplish it.

You are indeed wrong.

I would love to see some kind of collision avoidance in Finale. All I'm saying is MEANWHILE there are things you can do to minimize such problems.