Finale compared to DAW

[Hector Pascal]

Hi all,
Just some observations after using a DAW recently to create a minute of music of a big cinematic orchestral/choral type.

Because I am pretty good at improvisation, I found the process of playing in each instrumental track very fast and very liberating, compared to if I had been scoring it in Finale notation with simple entry! Having said that, even though I improvise well, it was quite challenging to come up with perfect voice leading amongst all the parts because the parts are played in separately. I guess, with time, one becomes an expert at that.

Cheerio,
Hector.

[Michel R E]

why on earth are you comparing Finale and a DAW?

that's like comparing apples and panda bears.

instead of Simple Entry why not use a MIDI keyboard and Speedy Entry? this allows me to noodle around with any thematic material which needs it, AND lets me see my score and know what needs to be done, instead of a meaningless "piano roll".

I have to say that I've heard many scores "written" in a DAW and they all suffer from the same grievous defects: lack of concise development, excessive repetition, and unclear or overly-simplistic harmonic movement.

[miker]

I have to say that I've heard many scores "written" in a DAW and they all suffer from the same grievous defects: lack of concise development, excessive repetition, and unclear or overly-simplistic harmonic movement.

But is that due to the tool, or the person using it?

[Michel R E]

I have to say that I've heard many scores "written" in a DAW and they all suffer from the same grievous defects: lack of concise development, excessive repetition, and unclear or overly-simplistic harmonic movement.

But is that due to the tool, or the person using it?

it's due to the type of people the tool attracts.
it's also in large part due to not actually SEEING the music and going by ear only.

using as an example film music, there are some really good ears out there, demonstrated by some pretty decent film scores. But they will NEVER achieve the heights of perfection that classic film scores (Williams, Goldsmith, etc...) did, because they aren't developing the material other than as what they hear.

[miker]

Thus, we have people proudly saying, "I don't read music, I play from my heart. By the way, can Finale notate my music if I sing into the microphone?"

[Jay Emmes]

A DAW may suit a tune smith, but is useless for a composer. It's simple as that. Choose the tool that fits whatever you do.

[motet]

Does anyone create music on a DAW, and then need it transcribed for traditional instruments? I think of a DAW as a new kind of instrument.

[thomsmit57]

Hello all,

I recently 'completed' a 10 minute orchestral piece in Finale. My score was looking close to pristine and I used NotePerformer as my sound source. I was pretty pleased with NP, thinking it was a nice upgrade over Garritan. (except for piano) I thought i was 'finished.'

Then I created a MIDI file of my score and transferred it over to Logic.

Holy Cow!

The samples in Logic are superior to anything I auditioned in Finale. As I became a little more accustomed to working with Logic and making instruments sound more human, (even though everybody is always in tune and their rhythm is always perfect! ; } ) I realized that my Finale score needed revision, edits, deletions, additions, etc. to align with what I was now hearing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Finale got me part of the way there aurally, but Logic became a compositional tool for me also.
As I made changes and improvements to the piece in Logic, I made sure I logged those changes in Finale. I'm still a paper score kind of guy and ultimately I want to have a human conductor lead a human ensemble, (COVID be damned!) so my score will only ever be realized with Finale. But I feel that Logic (or any good DAW) is now part of my process too.

Visually, Finale is my jam; but for a decent recording of the piece-I will go to Logic from now on.
For this piece I created (at least the bulk) in Finale, but was able to revise, edit and improve the composition using Logic.
In the future, I just might create something in Logic and then bring it over to Finale to polish the notation.

It was a huge amount of work and time getting to know Logic, but I'm not regretting it.
It's a new way of working for me, and I'm excited about using both.
Just my two cents.

https://soundcloud.com/user-910758346/r ... -orchestra

[Jetcopy]

FWIW, I started using a DAW 18 years ago to add more realism to my demo recordings. My normal workflow is to write in Finale, then bring the piece into Logic and fine tune a recording. I've heard tracks from DAW composers that are trite and others that are outstanding. I can say the same thing about Finale.

I did work on a project where I created background tracks to a solo harp. I didn't write anything in Finale first, I just listened to the harp and played whatever came into my mind. There was a lot of experimentation going on, trying different ideas until I found something I was happy with, It was a radically different way of working for me, but I did enjoy the process. I wasn't trying to emulate any standard composition techniques working this way, I was more concerned with textures and the sonic environment I put the harp in.

I think that all of these approaches are valid and having these tools at our disposal gives us more options. Nothing wrong with that.

[Jetcopy]

Does anyone create music on a DAW, and then need it transcribed for traditional instruments? I think of a DAW as a new kind of instrument.

Yes, this is done all the time, very common in film work.

[Hector Pascal]

Thankyou to everybody for your thoughts on this topic

thomsmit57 and jetcopy: It is really cool to read your comments about complementary use of Finale and DAW. I look forward to exploring the intersection of both programs, too. It is exciting territory!

Cheerio,
Hector.

[Jay Emmes]

Evidently, the difference in appreciation of the practicality of a DAW lies in the definition and understanding of the verb 'to compose'.

[thomsmit57]

I think that all of these approaches are valid and having these tools at our disposal gives us more options. Nothing wrong with that.

Jetcopy: this is along my lines of thinking, too.
Rituals are good, if they help in getting your inspiration to a place where it can be fully realized in the most professional, realistic manner.
But so are learning new ways to realize that inspiration; after digging into Logic and getting the final version of the work to sound like what I was hearing in my head, I'm excited about the possibilities of creating new work and how both gigantic pieces of software will help me get there.
I'm wrestling with the future prospect of large, human ensembles struggling to survive and for the ones that do, what their 'playlists' will look like. Beethoven and Brahms, even Copland are safe bets for orchestras of all sizes; new music is a gamble for these ensembles.
And to quote the old American Composer's Forum tag line: "ALL music was once new."

So meticulously notating my music in Finale (as I've been doing for almost 30 years now!) and then producing a realistic aural version of it in Logic can only be a positive thing if I'm never fortunate enough to be able to hear my work performed by great musicians. Maybe it's a belt and suspenders thing for me, I don't know. But I do know that knowing one's way around a DAW isn't a bad thing these days.

Evidently, the difference in appreciation of the practicality of a DAW lies in the definition and understanding of the verb 'to compose'.

Jay Emmes: just curious; what definition of the verb 'to compose' do you subscribe to?

[Jay Emmes]

Finding a melody and accompanying chords is not composing, but songwriting. Not finding the melody is composing, but arranging the material to be used (which does not have to be a conventional melody) in a way that creates a close, meaningful structure, that is composing. A musical structure little more complex than the very simplest (round and song structures) cannot be 'found' by improvising, but need to be constructed on the drawing table. A composer is an architect, not someone who builds a backyard shed.
And that, designing that meaningful structure, cannot be done from within a DAW. Nor can it from within Finale — which is why I have said before (in some other thread) that Finale is not a compositional tool, but merely a notational one.

The verb says it: 'to put together', not 'to stumble upon some nice sounding notes'. There are other verbs to cover the latter procedure. As Brahms said: "Without craftsmanship, inspiration is a mere reed shaken in the wind."

[David Ward]

… … …As Brahms said: "Without craftsmanship, inspiration is a mere reed shaken in the wind."

I said to someone the other day that I felt that on their own ideas and concepts were cheap, but that when a viable idea was combined with true craftsmanship it had the chance of becoming immensely valuable. My rather wordy way of saying what Brahms expressed more succinctly.

[Jetcopy]

I've heard many people who work in a DAW describe themselves as a "media composer". Any opinions on that description?

[miker]

I guess we can call ourselves whatever we want. One man’s graffiti artist is another man’s vandal. Time will decide which it is.

[heinzfan]

As we're on the subject, does anyone here use a DAW to control playback in Finale via rewire? I've only rarely used Finale professionally, and at this point I'm reluctant to learn new software, but if it can dramatically improve playback I might try it. Thoughts?

[thomsmit57]

As we're on the subject, does anyone here use a DAW to control playback in Finale via rewire? I've only rarely used Finale professionally, and at this point I'm reluctant to learn new software, but if it can dramatically improve playback I might try it. Thoughts?

heinzfan:

I tried ReWire with Finale a few months back, looking for the same thing you are seeking. I'm sure I wasn't proficient with it, ("trying," remember) but it caused all sorts of problems when I just wanted to work on my Finale scores without worrying so much about playback. Finale froze and hung on me and wasted a lot of my time as I searched for a way to NOT disconnect ReWire. I finally gave up and completely severed ties with ReWire, and my workflow was problem-free again.
Maybe others out there are more adept and have gone through the learning phase to be able to give some positive comments on it, but I'm not that guy. It was more trouble than any positive returns I saw.

As I said earlier in this thread, I "compose," at least to start, in Finale, then, if I just need my score to look professional and sharp and I don't want or need better sounding playback, I stay there.

But if I want my work to take a step up in terms of sound quality and have the ability to edit and improve the 'human factor' I create a MIDI file and go to the DAW. Pro Tools, Logic and several others are out there. I went with Logic Pro because I'm on a Mac, (Logic is owned by Apple) thereby making upgrades and OS compatibility a non-issue. I also toyed around with GarageBand way back and already had some experience with it; Logic's GUI has many similarities, (like GB on massive amounts of steroids) so it wasn't as steep a learning curve. I'm sure Pro Tools is the "PhotoShop" of DAWs, but I felt like I was going to need to take a course in audio engineering to get comfortable with such a deep program. Not that Logic isn't deep, but I had already taken the '101' course.