flute cadenza over ensemble in slow passage

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bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:48 pm

I have a section where the ensemble is playing a slow passage with quarter and half notes, while the flute is playing extended flurries above them.....essentially cadenza-like. I researched it a little, I know what Finale suggests, and that's what I did: I changed the time signature to 7/4, which is plenty of room for the cadenza notes---told Finale to "hide always" the 7/4 signature.....but on playback it's not right at all.....the flute part comes out way too slow, even with 32nd note runs. What is the best way to manage something like this? Do I just say, well, forget playback; it's not going to sound how I want it, or is there a way to achieve this?
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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:01 pm

Finale is always going to maintain vertical alignment on playback. I guess I would write the accompaniment in normal meter and write the flute part such that it aligns with each downbeat approximately how you like it. Use independent time signatures in the flute part and set the time signature to whatever you need to fit the notes in for that bar. Then hide all the time signatures for the flute.

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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:06 pm

or write the flute notes as various tuplets to fill out the time signature instead.
then just hide the tuplet brackets and numbers.
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bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:08 am

Good feedback....for now I'm just trying to align the notes with the slow parts, as suggested....maybe I'll experiment with the tuplets option........now it appears to be working okay; I can live with it. Thanks.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:41 pm

If you want playback correct and the score correct, I would make two seperate Finale files. Make it sound the way you want in one and make it appear like you want in the other. I have given up on trying to make Finale look and play a score correctly in a single file. Two is far easier.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:47 pm

separate files for playback and for printing is an excellent idea...
one important point is that with a separate playback file you can have every single instrument on an individual channel, panned individually, which gives a fuller, more realistic playback.
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XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
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Post by bj nick » Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:02 pm

YES: two separate files. The guy I'm studying orchestration with (30 years in the biz) said exactly that, after seeing one of my scores with crazy dynamics markings everywhere just to get the balance right. He said you do two different files: your actual score for creating parts, and the mock-up to get as close as you can to what it should ultimately sound like with live musicians. I was trying to get sort of a compromise, and on more simple things it works okay.....but most of the time it's a losing battle. Lesson learned. (btw this is a 6-piece ensemble so all instruments already on separate channels. What I lack is understanding of how to maximize playback quality....no excuse really, I know there's lots of YouTube videos out there, etc, but if anyone has a good suggestion for specific videos I'm all ears. I promise I'll watch/study them.)
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Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:31 pm

My suggestion is to buy Note Performer 3. I use a combination of the Garritan GPO and COMB and NP3 in the same score. I rarely use any of the default Finale sounds.
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Post by bj nick » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:17 pm

Yes, I've seen this suggested on other posts. My understanding is that I can always adjust/modify this or that, manage the GPO vs. NP3 sounds, etc, but that I can also just install it and it will work "right out of the box." Is my understanding correct? I'm not knowledgeable about tweaking sounds, MIDI, etc. and don't want to get myself into some situation where things are all askew and I'm constantly begging for rescue on this forum. I'd like to be able to just sort of "set it and forget it," at least for awhile.....I'm writing an extended piece and I'll be working on it for months; so no need to write for different groupings, etc. I basically would just like better playback, and it sounds like NP3 does just that.
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Post by Michel R E » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:25 pm

Here, this is a file played back through Finale, with NotePerformer3. There's no tweaking, nothing. It's the published printed score being played back.

I could probably have adjusted some volumes here and there, but I'm satisfied with the audio rendering.

https://youtu.be/-coG37wWb7A
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
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XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
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Post by bj nick » Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:50 pm

Yeah, I'd sure be "satisfied" with that......I think we're not supposed to comment on other people's work on here......? Something along those lines....? Regardless, I'd take that playback sound any day of the week. You convinced me; I downloaded it and I'm going to get started on it. Looking forward to it! (Note: I left a comment on the YouTube video.)
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:09 pm

NP3 is great but still do a seperate file for sound and one for print. Do the for print score first and get it the way you want it. Then make the sound file form it. On my computer NP3 causes a slight delay when starting and stopping playback. They say it is something going on in Finale but it is there. You really don't need great sound while you are composing anyway. When you get through or close make your playback sound file.

The hardest thing to get sounding good is percussion. It needs to be on separate staves.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:18 pm

Here is how I set-up my last sound file. I am happy with the sound.
score.jpg
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bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:41 pm

I agree with doing separate files, but I may do that in reverse, since I'm mainly using Finale for composing these days. I need to hear stuff as close as possible to what it will be with real people. The notation part for the players is much easier, at least for me.....when I don't have to think oh, the violin should be MP here, but I'd better make it MF so I can hear it better in playback. I can just take the "playback" version and modify it for the actual parts.

ebiggs: I assume you write for concert band.....would your settings be appropriate for everything in a general sense? Right now I'm just working with a 6-piece ensemble: flute, clarinet, piano, violin, cello, string bass. I'd like the best settings/MIDI
instrument choices for those instruments.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:25 pm

My main most thing is brass ensembles. I am the arranger for Bones Midwest a shoot of of Bones West created by George Roberts. I did do a very few for concert band but since COVID I have really gotten into concert band stuff. I have/had a civic concert band before COVD.

If you are just doing a small ensemble like you said, I would put each instrument on its own bank. Then you need to check which sound you prefer. For instance tha bass trombone form Garritan is absolutely horrible but the NP3 is pretty good. So, I use it. Just try them and you should be all set.
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Post by bj nick » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:40 pm

George Roberts: bass bone legend. I would say "today's George Roberts" would be Rich Bullock....a great bass bone player is equally exciting as a dazzling high-note trumpet. Anyway, Michael or Ebiggs: separate question but related vis a vis NP3: I hate the fact that I can't get a string bass sound from GPO that can play arco AND pizz properly. The "double bass" patches seem to do arco fine, but their pizz is terrible; a leaden, dead sound. The best pizz is "upright bass KS," but it won't do arco. Will my problem be solved with NP3? A bass player that can do both? What do you guys use? (recognizing that ebiggs is mainly concert band/brass ensemble, but maybe you know?) Note: I sometimes use the work-around, which is to have two bass players on different channels, but this can be a pain.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:46 pm

Sorry for taking so long to get back but we got our second COVID shot on Thursday and yesterday we felt like crap. I wonder if the virus is worse or the effects of the vaccine is? Today is good, however. As fast as it came on it is gone!

Also sorry for not being any help on strings pizzaco and arco settings. I think NP3 has settings to do that and I think GPO has it also. The only time I ever use strings is a string bass. And that only occasionally in a concert band piece. The KS (keystroke) option in GPO is supposed to do that I believe. But you need someone more experienced with it tham me.

On a side note about top current trombone players, I worked for BAC (The Horn Doctor)here in Olathe Kansas, now in KC MO for five years. Some of the best came through like Elliot Mason, Charles Vernon, Dave Steinmeyer, David Vining, Rodger Oyster, etc. One very interesting person was Steve Shires form Shires Trombone perhaps the best trombone maker there is. His instruments are fantastic.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:11 pm

I will say the best way is probably having all instruments perhaps even just a style change on it own staff. I have done this ever since I decided to make seperate files one for print and one for sound. Make one look the way you want it and the other play the way you want it.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:12 pm

My post was an apology as to why I had not responded any quicker. I had no intent of extending the debate. Why motet felt the need to I don't know. However, I am also sorry I am of no help or at least very little on your sound issue either.
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Post by bj nick » Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:18 pm

ebiggs, I appreciate anything you have to say. I knew with you it was a longshot b/c you're not writing for strings, but thought I'd ask. I just mentioned the no-politics thing because I've seen it all too often.....next thing you know, people who have been happily sharing for years are now at each other's throats. re: trombones-- I'm a trpt. player myself, but like I say, there's nothing like the sound of a great bass bone player. The guys here in SoCal call Rich Bullock "The Sound" lol. Several of the best big bands and film dates, etc, have Wayne Bergeron on lead trpt. and Rich on bass bone. Best of the best from top to bottom.
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bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:52 pm

ebiggs, thanks for that. I downloaded the 30-day NP3 option, and I look forward to trying it. Yeah, I believe the separate files thing is the way to go.....otherwise I have either wacky-looking parts or faulty playback. I hope.....and pray......that NP3 solves the arco/pizz problem, which is really annoying. I mean, I assume the violins can do col legno, sul tasto, all of that....so why can't a bass do both arco and pizz? But hey, I'm not a software engineer/MIDI guy....
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Post by miker » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:03 pm

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