Accidentals not displaying in Finale 25

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cms57
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Post by cms57 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:53 pm

Hello everybody!
I have this problem: occasionally, accidentals will NOT display on Score and Parts unless I force them to show (using the * key in speedy entry or otherwise). Finale will play it back correctly but they NOT display. Already for two different scores I had problems because when the parts were played the errors came out! Anyone know how to avoid this problem? Thanks!! Corrado


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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:54 pm

Would you post a file with this behavior for us to troubleshoot?

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

cms57
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Post by cms57 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:59 am

Hello Zuill, I attached a fragment where you can see the problem.
At bar 2: lower staff piano b and d accidentals not display!
Thanks!
Corrado
Attachments
fragment.musx
(92.41 KiB) Downloaded 96 times

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johnmouse
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Post by johnmouse » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:46 am

Use speedy entry, move cursor to each note and press the * key on your numeric pad. Worked for me. Your accidentals were hidden for some reason.

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michelp
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Post by michelp » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:54 pm

This happens sometimes when you delete a note of the same pitch (with an accidental) before the one in question.
Check the attached file. There are 2 Bb. Delete the first one, the second doesn't display the needed accidental.
This "dangerous" behavior (the audio will sound correct !) is not new and has never been fixed.
 
accidentals.musx
(98.95 KiB) Downloaded 82 times
Michel
MacOsX 12.7.4, Finale 27.4.1 & 26.3.1, Mac Mini Intel Dual Core i7 3Ghz, 16 Go Ram. Azerty kb. MOTU Midi Express XT USB, Roland Sound Canvas SC-88vl, MOTU Audio Express. 2 monitors (27"' pivot, 24'"), JW Lua, RGP Lua

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:06 pm

michelp wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:54 pm
This happens sometimes when you delete a note of the same pitch (with an accidental) before the one in question.
Check the attached file. There are 2 Bb. Delete the first one, the second doesn't display the needed accidental.
This "dangerous" behavior (the audio will sound correct !) is not new and has never been fixed.
 
accidentals.musx
The reason the second note does not display the accidental after the first note is either changed to a natural or removed is that the second note is already frozen regarding accidentals. Finale does not do this automatically. Somehow this state was activated by something you had done. How you entered it is possibly involved. How were these notes entered?

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:12 pm

cms57 wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:59 am
Hello Zuill, I attached a fragment where you can see the problem.
At bar 2: lower staff piano b and d accidentals not display!
Thanks!
Corrado
Possibly something happened as the notes were being entered that caused the problem. Finale won't do that automatically. The state of these accidentals is frozen, as indicated by the * when on that note in Speedy Entry. I take the time to visually inspect my scores for these kind of errors as even when we're careful, something we have done causes strange behavior. It's rarely the program, unless we enter things in ways that might trigger behaviors. Sometimes imported MIDI files or XML files can have these errors.

Two plugins can be helpful, but are not always perfect either. Jari's JW Accidentals plugin, and the Canonic Utilities plugin. The second one seems odd, by its name, to have anything to do with accidentals. However, it has a little known feature that unfreezes frozen accidentals, which is the issue in your file.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:45 pm

Something else. Finale used to have a "Check Accidentals" feature that was removed when they redesigned the whole accidental paradigm. I don't recall which version made that change. I already mentioned 2 plugins which can be of help. Another place where you can actually see what's "behind the curtain" is the Speedy Edit Frame, accessed by ctrl-clicking the measure in Speedy Entry. There is a box by "Freeze Accidental" that is checked when an accidental is frozen. In the attached file (fragment), I unchecked each of the frozen accidentals and they now appear. Again, Finale won't automatically freeze these accidentals. Something we do causes this. Thinking about how we are entering notation and making the necessary adjustments usually prevents this kind of result, which is definitely undesirable. If, somehow there was something Finale did to cause this (I can't imagine), we have ways to fix it.

I hadn't thought of this before, since I don't use the Cautionary Accidentals plugin, but that plugin might also have triggered freezing of accidentals. Did you use that plugin?

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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michelp
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Post by michelp » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:08 pm

zuill wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:06 pm
michelp wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:54 pm
This happens sometimes when you delete a note of the same pitch (with an accidental) before the one in question.
Check the attached file. There are 2 Bb. Delete the first one, the second doesn't display the needed accidental.
This "dangerous" behavior (the audio will sound correct !) is not new and has never been fixed.
 
accidentals.musx
The reason the second note does not display the accidental after the first note is either changed to a natural or removed is that the second note is already frozen regarding accidentals. Finale does not do this automatically. Somehow this state was activated by something you had done. How you entered it is possibly involved. How were these notes entered?

Zuill
I have entered these notes with the mouse, rests first, converted to half notes. The strange thing is that I cannot reproduce the problem anymore (I encountered it several times this morning !). It is a familiar one... Why this accidental gets frozen on the second note is a mistery.
Michel
MacOsX 12.7.4, Finale 27.4.1 & 26.3.1, Mac Mini Intel Dual Core i7 3Ghz, 16 Go Ram. Azerty kb. MOTU Midi Express XT USB, Roland Sound Canvas SC-88vl, MOTU Audio Express. 2 monitors (27"' pivot, 24'"), JW Lua, RGP Lua

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:23 pm

You entered the rests in Simple Entry, I imagine. Did you then change them to notes in Simple Entry?

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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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michelp
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Post by michelp » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:31 pm

It must have been completely done with Speedy (2 half note rests with the numeric keypad (6), then the mouse to convert them into notes, and the + and - keys for the flat). I almost never use Simple.

Redoing these steps now functions normally, go figure...
Michel
MacOsX 12.7.4, Finale 27.4.1 & 26.3.1, Mac Mini Intel Dual Core i7 3Ghz, 16 Go Ram. Azerty kb. MOTU Midi Express XT USB, Roland Sound Canvas SC-88vl, MOTU Audio Express. 2 monitors (27"' pivot, 24'"), JW Lua, RGP Lua

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:58 pm

For reference, in Simple, entering an accidental twice automatically hides the second accidental in the same measure. Speedy doesn't. So, on the second Bb, a natural would appear. Normally, pressing the - key changes it to a flat, but then the accidental is hidden per the convention of not showing the second accidental in the same measure.

Possibly, when pressing the - on the second note, the * got pressed too? They are next to each other on the numeric keypad. I'm just thinking about things that have happened to me in the past.

Zuill
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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:09 pm

I don't know if this caused it, but I suggest getting out of the habit of using * in Speedy to create a cautionary, since it will remove a legitimate accidental if you hit it by mistake (and freeze it). Use the A key instead, which will toggle a cautionary but never remove a real accidental.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:17 pm

Pressing the * key freezes an accidental. Pressing it again does not unfreeze it. Pressing the A key freezes and accidental. Pressing it again unfreezes it. That is a big difference.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:31 pm

I didn't know that--another reason not to use *! I think one should only need it in rare cases such as notes from different layers creating a double accidental.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:36 pm

In Simple, ctrl+shift with the - key does the same as the * key in Speedy. Pressing that combination again does not unfreeze the accidental. Simple doesn't have a comparable method to the A key in Speedy, as far as I know.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:12 pm

It seems like either a bug or a design mistake to make it easy to freeze the suppression of an accidental, which sounds like what's going on here.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:29 pm

Now that I look, in Speedy, ctrl+* will freeze or unfreeze an accidental.

Zuill
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cms57
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Post by cms57 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:04 am

Hello everybody, thanks for all your replies.
I contacted Finale support and there were no clarifying answers. I have had this accidentals not dispaying problem, up to now,
in two files: the first was a file started with Finale 2008 and ended with Finale 25.
In the opinion of Finale support, files coming from previous versions may have informations that produce errors.
So I was advised to export and import files in xml format.
But the second file, where I had the problem, is a file started and finished with Finale 25:
the error originated after a copy-paste from the version of Tuba and Piano to that of Tuba and Chamber Ensemble.
In the Piano part the accidental (natural) was present, in the version for Chamber Ensemble in the three parts, where I copied that particular phrase, the accidental not displaying.
I saw the error when I corrected the drafts of the publisher where the accidental (natural) appeared.
Finale support doesn't have an answer.
Thanks! Corrado

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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:14 pm

I'm a little skeptical of the "older version" theory.

However it happened, this seems easily fixable by clearing frozen accidentals. The Canonic Utilities plug-in can do that much less destructively than exporting and importing XML. Select All first.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:21 pm

The JW Change plugin can also unfreeze accidentals.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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