different chord frames for same chord name

[lynndavidnewton]

I'm using Finale 25.something on a Mac with Catalina OS.

I've been horsing with this for half an hour and can't find what must be an obvious solution.

I want to show chord frames in a piece of didactic guitar music. I've figured out how to add and edit the frames. (First time I've done this.) But it's trying to be too smart and is botching up what I want.

I've attached a one-measure graphic.

For instance, the time sig is 3/2, and I have G# minor triads in first and second inversion and root position on each half-note beat.

So the chord name is G#m, the same on each beat. (I don't care about adding slashes with the bass note). There's no need to show the "G#m" chord name on the second and third beats. All I want is the new chord frame for playing it in a different voicing.

So I get the first one in fine, but when I then want to add another one which happens to have a different fingering and frame because it's an inversion, it replaces also the first one with the same thing I've just edited. And so on with the third one.

What I want is a new frame that happens to have the same chord name.

Bonus question: how do I get rid of (or change) the "4 fr." (or whatever fret it thinks it should be -- in this example, it should be "1 fr.") on the right? (I'll probably get that figured out by the time someone answers.)

I've tried three or four times with the same result. I want to show the same chord with a different voicing, but it will change the other ones, too.

What am I doing wrong?

[zuill]

Since I couldn't make sense of the voicing your picture had, I started from scratch. Technically, the fretboards in my picture follow the inversions of the notated scores, albeit different, probably, from what you want. However, my picture shows that you can have a different fretboard for G#m for each position of the chord.

Zuill

[lynndavidnewton]

Hi Zuill, thanks for your response.

> Since I couldn't make sense of the voicing your picture
> had, I started from scratch.

Sorry, what I showed is what it gave me upon lousing it up. If I knew how to make it right, I wouldn't be asking the question.

The written music is correct. What I'm aiming for in the chord frames is the three inversions of the chord on the same set of strings, i.e. in this case strings 3-5, so B-D#-G#, then D#-G#-B, then G#-B-D#. The lowest fret in each case is 1, 4, and 8. The chord frame in the image is correct for the third chord (the one in root position). (Ignore the "4 fr.", which got plugged in automatically and which I also need to change to 1, 4, and 8.) The music continues up to the B-D#-G# an octave higher, but the frame is the same as the first except for the fret number, and I'm not putting in any except the first three in each exercise. (It consists of all the major and minor triads in all three inversions, up and down an octave, on strings 1-3, 2-4, and 3-5.)

> However, my picture shows that you can have a different
> fretboard for G#m for each position of the chord.

Yes, that hits the heart of my problem: When I did the second frame it replaced what I did for the first with what I did for the second, and when I did the third (which you see in the image), it replaced all three with that.

So again, my question is how do I make a different chord frame or voicing for the same chord?

Thanks so much for your patience. I know there's got to be an obvious thing I'm doing wrong.

[zuill]

Right-click the fretboard handle. Choose 'Edit Chord Definition". In that window, In the fretboard are, in the slot, it probably has 1. Click the Select button next to that slot. In the window that opens, there will be one or more fretboards. Click the Create button at the bottom of the window. Make it whatever you want, and choose the Fretboard number you want. Click OK. That fretboard will now be in the available fretboards. You didn't edit the Default fretboard(s), but now have one new custom fretboard. Create a unique fretboard for each position of the chord. Assign each to the appropriate chord. You can also right click on the chord name and deselect that item to show, so you can have the G#m only visible on the first Chord symbol, but not on the others. You may see the chord names shaded, if you have the option to show hidden items. However, they shouldn't print.

Zuill

P.S.: Maybe these are closer. I'm trying to get a grip on the voicings you want. They sound correct.

[lynndavidnewton]

Thanks, Zuill. Following these instructions I've gradually gotten familiar with the fretboard editor and see that it's a bit like the articulations editor. I ran into some frustration, but I'm gaining fluency.

One thing that has me confused -- what is meant by the term "Fretboard Group"? It's a user-settable parameter, apparently free-form.

I've chosen a number of names, but I don't see these appear anywhere, nor if I assign two or more with the same Fretboard Group Name do I see anywhere that I can show the ones I've assigned to that group together. Unless I'm looking at it and don't know what it is.

# I'm trying to get a grip on the voicings you want.

I'm creating an exercise that's not complicated. The guitarist needs to play triads in all inversions going up and back an octave on the same strings (no open strings allowed): a set for strings 1-3, then strings 2-4, then strings 3-5. (Strings 4-6 are essentially the same "geographically," i.e. it's all the same chord shapes.) It's more of a fretboard familiarity exercise than it is a playing exercise, though they should also be played.

There's a corresponding set for the minor triads.

So I'm making progress, but am still trying to figure out the purpose of Fretboard Group Names. I tried the online reference manual and don't see anything that actually explains it.

[zuill]

My instructions didn't involve the fretboard group. For what you are trying to do, I'm not sure you want to mess with those. I could be wrong. I would just create the custom fretboards that are needed. Here's the file I created to work with your issue.

Zuill

[lynndavidnewton]

All right, I can do that. I was thinking somehow I could group custom fretboards by type, i.e. the exercise I'm writing out covers these six categories:

Major, Strings 1-3
Major, Strings 2-4
Major, Strings 3-5
Minor, Strings 1-3
Minor, Strings 2-4
Minor, Strings 3-5

But it's not that much trouble to just use uniquely made fretboards. There's not that many.

I think this problem is basically solved. Thanks again.

[zuill]

After looking things over more closely, there might be a way to use the Fretboard Groups to organize things and possibly simplify things. At first I wasn't sure, but my curiosity got the best of me. I know you've got things working now, but it might be interesting to see if the Groups might be useful. Groups can be named, so I suppose you could have a group for each of the the six categories in your list. Since each items in your list, however, has 3 positions, then there would be 3X6, or 18 Fretboard Groups. However, once these groups are set up, and a name of chord is selected, clicking on the group in the Fretboard window would automatically bring up the pre-assigned fretboard for that pitch. You don't see the name of the Group in the window, but you can see the fretboard for the chord pitch that you selected, so you would pick by seeing the fretboard you pre-entered. The 18 groups are in the order you prescribe, so that makes things go more quickly. If you wanted to use these in other documents, I guess a Library could be created and then loaded into another document.

Once you finish the document you are working on, I would be curious to see it and and try the Fretboard Group approach on it, for my own education.

Zuill

P.S.: I did an example. I used the G#m positions you had originally shown and created the Group for strings 3-5. I also added G# using the same 3 positions you had used for the G#m. If you enter any other major or minor (other 11 pitches), the grids are blank, as I only did the G#m and G#. However, you can then enter all the others to the 3 Major and 3 Minor groups. Based on this demo you can then add groups for Major and minor for strings 2-4 and 1-3.

[lynndavidnewton]

Thanks for all your trouble!

What I'm working on is for my own use (not for publication or distribution), so it's not anything I'm polishing off to publication standard. I've put the project down for a couple of days but will return to it later this week when I have some more time. Since then I've rethought the nature of the exercise and have an idea on how to improve it substantially, which I'd like to do when I can cut some time for it.

When I'm done, I'll look again at what you're saying about the use of groups, but I'm initially inclined to think that one-of-a-kind chord frames will actually be adequate for this project. The only reason I tried to use groups as per my OP was because when I saw that hole in the fretboard editing form, I thought you were supposed to supply that that I'd figure out the reason for it by just doing it.

I looked at the second example you sent. Looks good. On a completely different subject, something I've noticed about guitarists in general is their tendency to use sharps rather than flats, probably because of the tuning of the instrument and because the most natural keys are G, D, A, and E (the ones that use open strings the most). But I've seen sharps used even when their enharmonic equivalents would be more appropriate. For instance, in this example, there is a G# (major) chord. Well and good, but the key of G-sharp, while theoretically legitimate would have eight sharps in it, including an F double-sharp, whereas it's really enharmonically A-flat. I've even seen books where guitarists have notated a chord D-sharp, G, A-sharp and called it a D-sharp chord rather than E-flat. And so on.

I mentioned this to one of my brothers, who is a musicologist and viola da gamba player, and he said enharmonic equivalents of this type don't bother him, which surprised me. However, they do bother me because I tend to think of harmony in the classical way.

Not a big deal ... just mentioning it FWIW.

[zuill]

I too am bothered by the inappropriate use of enharmonics. Context is important, and when an enharmonic is used and it is out of proper voice leading context, it is extremely confusing to not only me, but many well trained musicians.

Anyway, I would be curious to see your final document, even if you send it to me privately, so I might be able to learn something about customizing fretboards. The project you are involved in and shared here has kickstarted me into thinking about fretboards and the chord tool in a way I never even considered before.

Zuill

[lynndavidnewton]

OK, I might do that. How can I send you something privately?

Be aware that it might be a few weeks before I get around to finishing everything. I've got a bunch of things happening at once right now, and music is just one of them.

[zuill]

PM (private message) is available on this forum, and attachments can be made there.

Zuill