What is the "purpose" of the page margins settings?

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Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Sun May 09, 2021 8:09 am

For example, when changing the bottom page margin of the first page the copyright notice moves up as well. But it's still just outside the page margin. It's also possible to add other text outside the page margin. So what is the actual purpose of the page margins, if they don't act as the "border" for what will be printed?
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Sun May 09, 2021 3:05 pm

As it happens I've just in the last few minutes been adjusting the margins of a 247 page score so that the contents of all the right hand pages is shifted somewhat to the right to accommodate the binding, while keeping the default margins for the left hand pages. (There is a global option for having different margins for left and right hand pages.)

That's just one example, but there may be many different reasons for adjusting page margins, mostly, but not only, relating to printing and/or binding.

In Finale page numbers, copyright information and stave & group names are routinely outside the page margins. The information that goes to the printer (the machine, not the human) is usually such that these things outside the margins do print, as printing from Finale including to PDF is nearly (but not quite) borderless. However, that may not always be the case, so I usually reduce a PDF to 97% (or sometimes 95%) before e-mailing it to a commercial printer, especially if coil or similar binding is to be used.

Someone else on the forum will I'm sure be able to give a more technical answer with the correct terminology et al.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun May 09, 2021 3:35 pm

Tomas E wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:09 am
… So what is the actual purpose of the page margins, if they don't act as the "border" for what will be printed?
The page margins serve as a “border” for the systems.

That is, unless you tell Finale to “allow” margin collisions.

There is a setting in the Page Layout Tool:
Page Layout menu > Avoid Margin Collisions

By default, {Avoid Margin Collisions} is selected - which means that negative values are not allowed in the system margins.

But if you de-select {Avoid Margin Collisions}, negative values are allowed in the system margins - and you can position systems anywhere.
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motet
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Post by motet » Sun May 09, 2021 4:06 pm

The copyright notice in Finale's templates for some reason has a negative offset from the page margin. I agree it doesn't make much sense, but it can be changed.

Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Sun May 09, 2021 9:01 pm

David Ward wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 3:05 pm
As it happens I've just in the last few minutes been adjusting the margins of a 247 page score so that the contents of all the right hand pages is shifted somewhat to the right to accommodate the binding, while keeping the default margins for the left hand pages. (There is a global option for having different margins for left and right hand pages.)

That's just one example, but there may be many different reasons for adjusting page margins, mostly, but not only, relating to printing and/or binding.

In Finale page numbers, copyright information and stave & group names are routinely outside the page margins. The information that goes to the printer (the machine, not the human) is usually such that these things outside the margins do print, as printing from Finale including to PDF is nearly (but not quite) borderless. However, that may not always be the case, so I usually reduce a PDF to 97% (or sometimes 95%) before e-mailing it to a commercial printer, especially if coil or similar binding is to be used.

Someone else on the forum will I'm sure be able to give a more technical answer with the correct terminology et al.
Lots of good stuff here, thanks!
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1

Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Sun May 09, 2021 9:28 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 3:35 pm
Tomas E wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:09 am
… So what is the actual purpose of the page margins, if they don't act as the "border" for what will be printed?
The page margins serve as a “border” for the systems.

That is, unless you tell Finale to “allow” margin collisions.



No wonder that I find it confusing.

So, if the page margins serve as a "border" for the systems, what is the purpose of the system margins?
Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 3:35 pm
There is a setting in the Page Layout Tool:
Page Layout menu > Avoid Margin Collisions

By default, {Avoid Margin Collisions} is selected - which means that negative values are not allowed in the system margins.

But if you de-select {Avoid Margin Collisions}, negative values are allowed in the system margins - and you can position systems anywhere.
That might be useful to me. Thanks!
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Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Sun May 09, 2021 9:29 pm

motet wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 4:06 pm
The copyright notice in Finale's templates for some reason has a negative offset from the page margin. I agree it doesn't make much sense, but it can be changed.
👍
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun May 09, 2021 10:04 pm

Tomas E wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:28 pm
… So, if the page margins serve as a "border" for the systems, what is the purpose of the system margins? …
The System Margins control the precise positioning of each system relative to the Page Margins.

You can e. g. indent a specific system, by giving the system a bigger value for the system’s Left Margin.

You can set the default values for a document’s System Margins here:
Document menu > Page Format > …

Finale will use the default Page Format values when creating new systems/pages.

You can edit any system, and give it other margin values than the default.

With the Page Layout Tool you can “at one fell swoop” reset all margin values to the default values:
Page Layout menu > Redefine Pages > …
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Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Sun May 09, 2021 10:24 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 10:04 pm
Tomas E wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 9:28 pm
… So, if the page margins serve as a "border" for the systems, what is the purpose of the system margins? …
The System Margins control the precise positioning of each system relative to the Page Margins.
👍
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon May 10, 2021 12:02 am

The system margins keep each other apart.

I think you can safely ignore negative offsets and turning off "avoid margin collisions." Those are advanced concepts and not needed by most people.

Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Mon May 10, 2021 10:25 am

motet wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:02 am
The system margins keep each other apart.

I think you can safely ignore negative offsets and turning off "avoid margin collisions." Those are advanced concepts and not needed by most people.
Thanks, I came to think of the first part of your answer later. So it serves two purposes I guess.

I'll try that then. 👍
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KennethKen
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Post by KennethKen » Mon May 10, 2021 7:32 pm

Perhaps Doug Blackmore's graphic representation of the margin system would help. https://forum.makemusic.com/default.asp ... 48#m262948

Ken

Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Mon May 10, 2021 8:24 pm

KennethKen wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 7:32 pm
Perhaps Doug Blackmore's graphic representation of the margin system would help. https://forum.makemusic.com/default.asp ... 48#m262948

Ken
Maybe. I need to be alert when going through all that. 😎
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1

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