Is this common accidental placement?

General notation questions, including advanced notation, formatting, etc., go here.

Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

Tomas E
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:22 pm
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Windows

Post by Tomas E » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:00 pm

Is this placement of accidentals common practice? It seems far off to me.

accidental.png
accidental.png (8.86 KiB) Viewed 4885 times
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1


User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
Finale Version: Finale 25.5
Operating System: Mac

Post by John Ruggero » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:11 pm

You're right. Finale does this because it isn't smart enough to "tuck" in the sharp closer to the top note because the second on the bottom of the chord is "pushing" it away. I think the only way to correct it is by hand with the Accidental Mover Tool. I understand that Dorico does better with these.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com

"The better the composer, the better the notation."

Tomas E
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:22 pm
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Windows

Post by Tomas E » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:15 pm

Thanks John! 😎
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6603
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:20 pm

… or you could “flip the stem”.
Even if a whole note does not have a stem, you can still flip the stem.
Attachments
Accidental.jpg
Accidental.jpg (2.07 KiB) Viewed 4876 times
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Anders Hedelin
Posts: 760
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
Finale Version: Finale 26, 27.4.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:30 pm

Finale doesn't like to/can't place an accidental after the leftmost notehead. Here's how Henle does it - more appropriately:
Accidentals.jpg
Unfortunately there seems to be no other option than manual adjustment.

Edit: I notice that John was quicker than me.
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
Windows 10

Tomas E
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:22 pm
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Windows

Post by Tomas E » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:45 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:20 pm
… or you could “flip the stem”.
Even if a whole note does not have a stem, you can still flip the stem.
Actually I changed my mind and wanted half notes there instead. Then the stems flipped automatically but the # didn't come very much closer, so I still had to use the manual option. Maybe it's only working on whole notes?
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8230
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:56 pm

Flipping the stem worked for me with half notes, but that's not an acceptable solution, since the stem should be down!

Note the sharp is in the same relation to the A, the left-most note, in both versions. With the stem reversed, the A can be tucked under the F, bringing the sharp closer.

Maybe this is a job for Perfect Layout? I doubt if MM will or can ever fix it.
Attachments
0904.png

Anders Hedelin
Posts: 760
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
Finale Version: Finale 26, 27.4.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:00 pm

Flipping the chord of whole notes looks a little strange in my eyes, but we can call that habit of tradition. With half notes it's not possible simply. Still there are a lot of situations where you have to adjust Finale's wanting accident placement. For example they are many times too far from each other for no apparent reason.

Again too slow - motet got before me.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
Windows 10

Tomas E
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:22 pm
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Windows

Post by Tomas E » Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:02 pm

motet wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:56 pm
Flipping the stem worked for me with half notes
Yes, you're right. I didn't know which direction the stem of the whole notes had. Since the accidental moved a bit I assumed it flipped.
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8230
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:39 am

Without comment.
Attachments
0910.png
0910.png (34.93 KiB) Viewed 4708 times

Anders Hedelin
Posts: 760
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
Finale Version: Finale 26, 27.4.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:31 pm

I would have liked to say 'no comment' to that, but it strikes me that the Finale accidentals look a little like satellites. Are MM into astronomy? Or astrology - maybe the stars weren't in the right position when they created this?
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
Windows 10

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5993
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:53 pm

But at least, we can make those adjustments to the default position.
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

Tomas E
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:22 pm
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Windows

Post by Tomas E » Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:55 pm

I understand now that this must have been an big issue for a long time.

Having no knowledge of programming my guess is that they have tried to fix it, but then other issues have appeared out of nowhere. Since they have chosen a path that is too risky to leave they stay on it, hoping that one day this will miraculously disappear.
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1

Anders Hedelin
Posts: 760
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
Finale Version: Finale 26, 27.4.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:10 pm

miker wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:53 pm
But at least, we can make those adjustments to the default position.
I know that, miker. And that's why I hang on to this wonderful and nerve-racking program, regardless of what the stars may say. It's like in an old marriage. With the difference that I can (almost) always have the last say.
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
Windows 10

User avatar
Michel R E
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Michel R E » Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:51 pm

so basically, what we REALLY needed was "easy trading of Finale files" and "improved percussion layout".... but not CORRECT accidental placement?
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

Anders Hedelin
Posts: 760
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
Finale Version: Finale 26, 27.4.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:14 pm

Michel R E wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:51 pm
so basically, what we REALLY needed was "easy trading of Finale files" and "improved percussion layout".... but not CORRECT accidental placement?
This is an iffy word to use these days, but I can't get rid of the impression that MM has gone rather 'populistic'. Maybe they see us, relatively more serious users, as "whining snobs"?
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
Windows 10

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5993
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:23 pm

Michel R E wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:51 pm
so basically, what we REALLY needed was "easy trading of Finale files" and "improved percussion layout".... but not CORRECT accidental placement?
Right. We just aren’t clever enough to appreciate all they do for us.
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

Tomas E
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:22 pm
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Windows

Post by Tomas E » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:15 pm

Accidentals are misplaced by accident. Thus the truth lies within the expression.
Last edited by Tomas E on Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1

User avatar
Michel R E
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Michel R E » Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:22 pm

sadly, Dorico requires having Windoze10.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

BuonTempi
Posts: 1297
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
Finale Version: Finale 27
Operating System: Mac

Post by BuonTempi » Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:59 am

Michel R E wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:22 pm
sadly, Dorico requires having Windoze10.
Any reason you're not running W10? The system requirements are quite minimal.

Windows 10 was released six years ago, and Windows 11 is due out later this year.

BuonTempi
Posts: 1297
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
Finale Version: Finale 27
Operating System: Mac

Post by BuonTempi » Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:52 am

Another related 'tucking' problem is that Finale can't nestle one accidental under another one. It can either place it directly beneath, or completely to the side.
Screenshot 6.png
So not only do you get the 'far out' sharp on the 2nd chord, you also get widely spaced out flats on the 1st one.

Now, you can reduce the default "Minimum Vertical Spacing between Accidentals" to 5 steps, in which case the lower flat sits directly beneath the first, not slightly to the side, as in the Henle engraving. But that might have consequences for sharps, and doesn't fix smaller intervals. Also, Finale doesn't handle collision between layers or cross-staff notes.

Even MuseScore does 'tucking' by default, and correctly places the sharp on the 2nd chord, though like Finale it makes a bit of a hash of the accidentals in different layers / cross-staff.
Screenshot.png
Dorico by default gives this. If you want to match the accidental order in Henle's engraving, each accidental has an 'column' property that sets the order.
Screenshot 9.png
In other news: MuseScore and Dorico both default to 'inner' tie placement in that lower chord, compared to Finale and Henle's 'outer' placement. Like Finale's "Use Outer Placement" checkbox in Document Options, Dorico has a similar Engraving Option. I haven't found the equivalent in MuseScore (yet).

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
Finale Version: Finale 25.5
Operating System: Mac

Post by John Ruggero » Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:52 am

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:10 pm
It's like in an old marriage. With the difference that I can (almost) always have the last say.
Which for some is worth a lot. However, in my opinion, anyone whose doesn't have special requirements (like changing beam thickness, multiple alternative fingerings, personalized piano braces and work space etc.) and simply wants to produce good-looking music engraving by the book (Elaine Gould's book) without the hassle should switch to Dorico, especially since one can now use the Maestro font in Dorico.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com

"The better the composer, the better the notation."

Tomas E
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:22 pm
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Windows

Post by Tomas E » Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:36 pm

John Ruggero wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:52 am
However, in my opinion, anyone whose doesn't have special requirements (like changing beam thickness, multiple alternative fingerings, personalized piano braces and work space etc.) and simply wants to produce good-looking music engraving by the book (Elaine Gould's book) without the hassle should switch to Dorico, especially since one can now use the Maestro font in Dorico.
You also have to take into account how much time you'll need to learn the new software. Starting from scratch maybe with menus, shortcuts and so on may slow you down. The older you are the longer it takes.
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1

User avatar
elbsound
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:06 am
Finale Version: Finale 2014.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by elbsound » Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:13 pm

I have now implemented an automatic solution for this in the upcoming update v2.42 of my Perfect Layout plug-in for Finale.
Here are the results of the prototype:
Image

BTW, Perfect Layout already has a many other horizontal improvements for accidentals.
For example:
Image
More Info: https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8230
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:36 am

Bravo.

Post Reply