Is this common accidental placement?
Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker
- John Ruggero
- Posts: 827
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
- Finale Version: Finale 25.5
- Operating System: Mac
You're right. Finale does this because it isn't smart enough to "tuck" in the sharp closer to the top note because the second on the bottom of the chord is "pushing" it away. I think the only way to correct it is by hand with the Accidental Mover Tool. I understand that Dorico does better with these.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com
"The better the composer, the better the notation."
www.cantilenapress.com
"The better the composer, the better the notation."
- Peter Thomsen
- Posts: 6620
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
- Finale Version: Finale v27.4
- Operating System: Mac
… or you could “flip the stem”.
Even if a whole note does not have a stem, you can still flip the stem.
Even if a whole note does not have a stem, you can still flip the stem.
- Attachments
-
- Accidental.jpg (2.07 KiB) Viewed 4989 times
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996
-
- Posts: 760
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
- Finale Version: Finale 26, 27.4.1
- Operating System: Windows
Finale doesn't like to/can't place an accidental after the leftmost notehead. Here's how Henle does it - more appropriately:
Edit: I notice that John was quicker than me.
Unfortunately there seems to be no other option than manual adjustment.Edit: I notice that John was quicker than me.
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
Windows 10
Windows 10
Actually I changed my mind and wanted half notes there instead. Then the stems flipped automatically but the # didn't come very much closer, so I still had to use the manual option. Maybe it's only working on whole notes?Peter Thomsen wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:20 pm… or you could “flip the stem”.
Even if a whole note does not have a stem, you can still flip the stem.
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1
- motet
- Posts: 8276
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
- Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
- Operating System: Windows
Flipping the stem worked for me with half notes, but that's not an acceptable solution, since the stem should be down!
Note the sharp is in the same relation to the A, the left-most note, in both versions. With the stem reversed, the A can be tucked under the F, bringing the sharp closer.
Maybe this is a job for Perfect Layout? I doubt if MM will or can ever fix it.
Note the sharp is in the same relation to the A, the left-most note, in both versions. With the stem reversed, the A can be tucked under the F, bringing the sharp closer.
Maybe this is a job for Perfect Layout? I doubt if MM will or can ever fix it.
-
- Posts: 760
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
- Finale Version: Finale 26, 27.4.1
- Operating System: Windows
Flipping the chord of whole notes looks a little strange in my eyes, but we can call that habit of tradition. With half notes it's not possible simply. Still there are a lot of situations where you have to adjust Finale's wanting accident placement. For example they are many times too far from each other for no apparent reason.
Again too slow - motet got before me.
Again too slow - motet got before me.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
Windows 10
Windows 10
-
- Posts: 760
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
- Finale Version: Finale 26, 27.4.1
- Operating System: Windows
I would have liked to say 'no comment' to that, but it strikes me that the Finale accidentals look a little like satellites. Are MM into astronomy? Or astrology - maybe the stars weren't in the right position when they created this?
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
Windows 10
Windows 10
I understand now that this must have been an big issue for a long time.
Having no knowledge of programming my guess is that they have tried to fix it, but then other issues have appeared out of nowhere. Since they have chosen a path that is too risky to leave they stay on it, hoping that one day this will miraculously disappear.
Having no knowledge of programming my guess is that they have tried to fix it, but then other issues have appeared out of nowhere. Since they have chosen a path that is too risky to leave they stay on it, hoping that one day this will miraculously disappear.
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1
-
- Posts: 760
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
- Finale Version: Finale 26, 27.4.1
- Operating System: Windows
I know that, miker. And that's why I hang on to this wonderful and nerve-racking program, regardless of what the stars may say. It's like in an old marriage. With the difference that I can (almost) always have the last say.
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
Windows 10
Windows 10
- Michel R E
- Posts: 702
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
- Operating System: Windows
so basically, what we REALLY needed was "easy trading of Finale files" and "improved percussion layout".... but not CORRECT accidental placement?
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
-
- Posts: 760
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
- Finale Version: Finale 26, 27.4.1
- Operating System: Windows
This is an iffy word to use these days, but I can't get rid of the impression that MM has gone rather 'populistic'. Maybe they see us, relatively more serious users, as "whining snobs"?Michel R E wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:51 pmso basically, what we REALLY needed was "easy trading of Finale files" and "improved percussion layout".... but not CORRECT accidental placement?
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
Windows 10
Windows 10
- miker
- Posts: 6009
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 27.4
- Operating System: Mac
Right. We just aren’t clever enough to appreciate all they do for us.Michel R E wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:51 pmso basically, what we REALLY needed was "easy trading of Finale files" and "improved percussion layout".... but not CORRECT accidental placement?
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society
- Michel R E
- Posts: 702
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
- Operating System: Windows
sadly, Dorico requires having Windoze10.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
-
- Posts: 1306
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
- Finale Version: Finale 27
- Operating System: Mac
Another related 'tucking' problem is that Finale can't nestle one accidental under another one. It can either place it directly beneath, or completely to the side.
So not only do you get the 'far out' sharp on the 2nd chord, you also get widely spaced out flats on the 1st one.
Now, you can reduce the default "Minimum Vertical Spacing between Accidentals" to 5 steps, in which case the lower flat sits directly beneath the first, not slightly to the side, as in the Henle engraving. But that might have consequences for sharps, and doesn't fix smaller intervals. Also, Finale doesn't handle collision between layers or cross-staff notes.
Even MuseScore does 'tucking' by default, and correctly places the sharp on the 2nd chord, though like Finale it makes a bit of a hash of the accidentals in different layers / cross-staff.
Dorico by default gives this. If you want to match the accidental order in Henle's engraving, each accidental has an 'column' property that sets the order.
In other news: MuseScore and Dorico both default to 'inner' tie placement in that lower chord, compared to Finale and Henle's 'outer' placement. Like Finale's "Use Outer Placement" checkbox in Document Options, Dorico has a similar Engraving Option. I haven't found the equivalent in MuseScore (yet).
So not only do you get the 'far out' sharp on the 2nd chord, you also get widely spaced out flats on the 1st one.
Now, you can reduce the default "Minimum Vertical Spacing between Accidentals" to 5 steps, in which case the lower flat sits directly beneath the first, not slightly to the side, as in the Henle engraving. But that might have consequences for sharps, and doesn't fix smaller intervals. Also, Finale doesn't handle collision between layers or cross-staff notes.
Even MuseScore does 'tucking' by default, and correctly places the sharp on the 2nd chord, though like Finale it makes a bit of a hash of the accidentals in different layers / cross-staff.
Dorico by default gives this. If you want to match the accidental order in Henle's engraving, each accidental has an 'column' property that sets the order.
In other news: MuseScore and Dorico both default to 'inner' tie placement in that lower chord, compared to Finale and Henle's 'outer' placement. Like Finale's "Use Outer Placement" checkbox in Document Options, Dorico has a similar Engraving Option. I haven't found the equivalent in MuseScore (yet).
- John Ruggero
- Posts: 827
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
- Finale Version: Finale 25.5
- Operating System: Mac
Which for some is worth a lot. However, in my opinion, anyone whose doesn't have special requirements (like changing beam thickness, multiple alternative fingerings, personalized piano braces and work space etc.) and simply wants to produce good-looking music engraving by the book (Elaine Gould's book) without the hassle should switch to Dorico, especially since one can now use the Maestro font in Dorico.Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:10 pmIt's like in an old marriage. With the difference that I can (almost) always have the last say.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com
"The better the composer, the better the notation."
www.cantilenapress.com
"The better the composer, the better the notation."
You also have to take into account how much time you'll need to learn the new software. Starting from scratch maybe with menus, shortcuts and so on may slow you down. The older you are the longer it takes.John Ruggero wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:52 amHowever, in my opinion, anyone whose doesn't have special requirements (like changing beam thickness, multiple alternative fingerings, personalized piano braces and work space etc.) and simply wants to produce good-looking music engraving by the book (Elaine Gould's book) without the hassle should switch to Dorico, especially since one can now use the Maestro font in Dorico.
Windows 11, Finale 27.4.1
- elbsound
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:06 am
- Finale Version: Finale 2014.5
- Operating System: Windows
I have now implemented an automatic solution for this in the upcoming update v2.42 of my Perfect Layout plug-in for Finale.
Here are the results of the prototype:
BTW, Perfect Layout already has a many other horizontal improvements for accidentals.
For example:
More Info: https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/
Here are the results of the prototype:
BTW, Perfect Layout already has a many other horizontal improvements for accidentals.
For example:
More Info: https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/