Symbol for percussion with the side of the thumb on strings (guitar)?

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Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:41 pm

At the beginning of the guitar piece Fandanguillo by Joaquin Turina, one's supposed to use the side of the thumb to play percussion on strings 5 and 6, near the bridge. Does anyone know if there's an expression, smart shape or articulation symbol for this technique? (In the sheet music from a long time ago he has made a very detailed description of how to do it.)

If you haven't heard it, here's one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOoM6LtxCKw
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thomsmit57
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Post by thomsmit57 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:19 pm

Tomas E,

I just viewed the first minute of the video and although his right hand is out of frame, it sure sounds like (and I'm familiar with the piece) he is executing your basic-garden-variety Tambour on the guitar.

Tambours can be notated different ways. I haven't seen the edition you're alluding to, but if I was going to notate that passage at this moment, I would probably just write the notes at pitch and put "Tambour" or Tamb. over the length of the desired passage. If you want it to be very clear where it stops and starts, add a dotted line (with or without a hook). If you think it might not be perfectly clear when to start playing normally again, put an 'ord' marking in when the Tamb. ceases..
Use the Smart Shape Tool much like you would create a Capo marking, then you have the flexibility to stretch it across measures and systems.

Another approach would be to use 'x' noteheads for the notes to be struck, drum-style. But I would still write "Tamb." over top. There are pitches sounding, after all. (my concern with this method is that the player could interpret it to deaden or muffle the x noteheads, ala étouffe or even pizz.) Maybe not what the composer or publisher is trying to put across, so stick with the first idea; it's clear and safe.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:55 pm

interestingly, the manuscript of this work simply shows regular noteheads, and no text expression or articulation to indicate that the notes should be played in any particular fashion.

a Russian edition I saw has the text "percussion" next to those repeated note passages.
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Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:52 am

thomsmit57 wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:19 pm
Tomas E,

I just viewed the first minute of the video and although his right hand is out of frame, it sure sounds like (and I'm familiar with the piece) he is executing your basic-garden-variety Tambour on the guitar.

Tambours can be notated different ways. I haven't seen the edition you're alluding to, but if I was going to notate that passage at this moment, I would probably just write the notes at pitch and put "Tambour" or Tamb. over the length of the desired passage. If you want it to be very clear where it stops and starts, add a dotted line (with or without a hook). If you think it might not be perfectly clear when to start playing normally again, put an 'ord' marking in when the Tamb. ceases..
Use the Smart Shape Tool much like you would create a Capo marking, then you have the flexibility to stretch it across measures and systems.

Another approach would be to use 'x' noteheads for the notes to be struck, drum-style. But I would still write "Tamb." over top. There are pitches sounding, after all. (my concern with this method is that the player could interpret it to deaden or muffle the x noteheads, ala étouffe or even pizz.) Maybe not what the composer or publisher is trying to put across, so stick with the first idea; it's clear and safe.
Thanks!

Now that you mention it I have a recollection of seeing "Tamb" somewhere else in a score. I think this will be the best approach.

Regarding the edition, see my next post in a couple of minutes.
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Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:58 am

Michel R E wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:55 pm
interestingly, the manuscript of this work simply shows regular noteheads, and no text expression or articulation to indicate that the notes should be played in any particular fashion.

a Russian edition I saw has the text "percussion" next to those repeated note passages.
This is what it says in the Segovia edition (GA 102). I thought that I should come up with a shorter description.

Fandanguillo.png
Fandanguillo.png (9.55 KiB) Viewed 2101 times
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thomsmit57
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Post by thomsmit57 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:30 pm

Tomas E,
Glad it makes sense now. Great piece.

Michel R E,
Maybe we can chalk this up to it NEVER being included in the first printed editions, but rather something Segovia added because he thought it was a good idea; the rhythm and the the two last strings being struck probably 'cried out' to him as a percussive effect. And what better way to achieve the sound of pitched percussion on the guitar than a Tambour effect. Once a revised edition came out, it most likely had Segovia's ideas and changes injected into it. Whether Turina had anything to say about it, positive or negative, is another issue. Segovia's musical and editorial changes to Manuel Ponce's music are legendary and some would say border on the Control-Freak spectrum.
I do know that Segovia envisioned the classical guitar as an instrument that would evoke the many colors of an orchestra. So cue the Percussion section....
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miker
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Post by miker » Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:38 pm

I saw Segovia in concert, back when I was a young teenager.
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Tomas E
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Post by Tomas E » Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:41 am

Michel R E wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:55 pm
interestingly, the manuscript of this work simply shows regular noteheads, and no text expression or articulation to indicate that the notes should be played in any particular fashion.
thomsmit57 wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:30 pm
Tomas E,
Glad it makes sense now. Great piece.

Michel R E,
Maybe we can chalk this up to it NEVER being included in the first printed editions, but rather something Segovia added because he thought it was a good idea;
I see. Then it's probably Segovia who wrote this percussion description. I assumed that it was Turina himself since the title in the Segovia edition has the addition "A Andrés Segovia".
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thomsmit57
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Post by thomsmit57 » Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:17 pm

Mike,

I too saw Segovia three times in my youth; all at the magical Academy of Music in Philly. The first time I saw/heard him, it was exquisite.
The second time, as we both were getting older and I was a university guitar student now, not as great-too many mistakes and not playing the music as written. At that time I was learning the repertoire he was performing so I was hyper-familiar with the music. The third time all I remember were the many memory lapses and left hand flubs-(he WAS in his 80s by now!) So I vowed that I wouldn't see him again if he was still alive/passed through town on another tour. He did come through one more time, (he died the next year) but I wanted my memories to be of him when he still had command of the instrument, so I passed on a fourth concert. I heard it wasn't very good.

I had to wait a few years, but I eventually got to see the "Holy Trinity" of the classical guitar at that time-Segovia, Julian Bream, and John Williams. (not the Star Wars composer guy, the Australian who studied with Segovia early on-monstrous player!)
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Post by carvetop » Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:32 pm

I am looking for the same thing. FINALE 27.2 Windows 11.

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