tuplet dynamic

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musicus
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tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:43 pm

In the attached file I want to indicate that the sF applies to
the whole 5-note tuplet, and not just to the 3rd note of the tuplet.
Have I done it clearly? or is there a better way? (I tried using the
bracket tool under the sF but couldn't get the ends to point upward.)
Thanks.
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Re: tuplet dynamic

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Roberto
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by Roberto » Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:03 pm

I'm not quite sure what you intend by sforzando for the quintuplet but perhaps this may be what you're looking for?
Capture.JPG

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by motet » Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:24 pm

I don't think what you've done is good, no. A dynamic always is associated with a note. You could put accents on all five notes.

Do you have a Facebook account. There is a group there, Music Engraving Tips, for asking questions like this.

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:17 am

Yes the 2nd example is what I meant, but it took me a while to figure out
how to correctly position the tool. I think I got it now. Thanks.
Roberto wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:03 pm
I'm not quite sure what you intend by sforzando for the quintuplet but perhaps this may be what you're looking for?
Capture.JPG

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John Ruggero
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by John Ruggero » Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:24 pm

I myself have never seen a bracket used with an accent mark and think it might not be standard music notation.

I would suggest either of the following:
example.jpeg
I added a note at the end assuming that you want the roulade to lead on a following note. If you don't, then place the f over whatever happens next.

Its also possible that you simply want a sf placed on the first note of the quintuplet because accenting every note of roulade is a rare effect.
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 pm

John, thanks for your comment. The FF doesn't work for me, as well as the sF first note of the roulade. Pianistically (I don't know if you are a pianist but I am) the RH is almost "punching" a chord. The punch, however, should not be too loud, but enough to be felt. Granted that the bracket might not be standard, but for now, I am in favor of it, unless I see a better way. See attached for the first 3 measures of a piece for piano.
Thanks again for your considering this!
John Ruggero wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:24 pm
I myself have never seen a bracket used with an accent mark and think it might not be standard music notation.

I would suggest either of the following:
example.jpeg

I added a note at the end assuming that you want the roulade to lead on a following note. If you don't, then place the f over whatever happens next.

Its also possible that you simply want a sf placed on the first note of the quintuplet because accenting every note of roulade is a rare effect.
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David Ward
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by David Ward » Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:18 pm

musicus wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 pm
… … …(I don't know if you are a pianist but I am)
I hope John won't mind my saying that he is very experienced pianist with a strong interest in clear notation.

I on the other hand am no pianist: my professional instrument was the trombone and for a while I was an amateur cellist. As a composer I write primarily, but not only, for voices and sustaining instruments. From that point of view, rather than the specifically pianistic one, I'm wondering what it is you mean by a sforzando. The following is a table scanned from Walter Piston's book on orchestration of what might be considered to be the ‘shape’ of various types of accent when played on those instruments which can distinguish in this way. Obviously the piano can't do these literally, but surely there might be some rough equivalent.
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by motet » Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:48 pm

This will be better understood:
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:00 pm

But not according to my intention.
motet wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:48 pm
This will be better understood:

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by motet » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:05 pm

What is your intention? You need to write something that players will understand.

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by Jetcopy » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:37 pm

What dynamic precedes the tuplet?

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:48 pm

mF (mezzo forte)
Jetcopy wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:37 pm
What dynamic precedes the tuplet?

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:38 pm

Of course I agree with your second sentence. I am attempting to best
express my intention via the musical notation.
motet wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:05 pm
What is your intention? You need to write something that players will understand.

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pm

I appreciate your comment, but I cannot agree with your statement "A dynamic always is associated with a note." Thousands of examples abound where a dynamic applies to entire phrases, not just individual notes. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?
motet wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:24 pm
I don't think what you've done is good, no. A dynamic always is associated with a note. You could put accents on all five notes.

Do you have a Facebook account. There is a group there, Music Engraving Tips, for asking questions like this.

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by David Ward » Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:57 pm

My earlier post in this thread was too convoluted. However, I have a simple question.

What is meant by a sforzando that applies to all the notes of a piano roulade?

In our several ways we all seem to be asking this question. It would be interesting to know the answer.
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:08 pm

I will try to be honest. There are various symbols - sF, sFz, sFFz, etc. - which, as accurate as they try to be, are all open to interpretation depending on composer and context. The roulade here is a gesture having the impact of a musical "punch" of medium volume. So the sF would apply to the whole roulade, not just the individual notes within. That's why I'm opting for the bracket, although I'm open to any suggestion which makes my intention more clear.
David Ward wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:57 pm
My earlier post in this thread was too convoluted. However, I have a simple question.

What is meant by a sforzando that applies to all the notes of a piano roulade?

In our several ways we all seem to be asking this question. It would be interesting to know the answer.

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by David Ward » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:24 pm

That more or less fits with the translation of sforzando as ‘forcing’. Maybe try writing the Italian word out in full under the roulade? Could that serve?

I take the view that sf is as much an articulation as a dynamic, and as such usually applies to a single note.

Anyway, I do now understand what it is you want.
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:30 pm

I rarely use Facebook. Are you saying that my question about the tuplet dynamics is one that should not be posted here on Finale Forum?
motet wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:24 pm
I don't think what you've done is good, no. A dynamic always is associated with a note. You could put accents on all five notes.

Do you have a Facebook account. There is a group there, Music Engraving Tips, for asking questions like this.

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by motet » Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:43 pm

No, just that there are many more people there willing to chime in, perhaps hundreds. Several of them work for publishers. I've learned a lot there.

I should have said dynamics are usually underneath a specific note to indicate where the dynamic begins. sf is kind of special since it implies a sharp attack that's stronger than the rest of the note (see the Piston diagram David posted), hence it doesn't make sense applied to more than one note. It sounds to me like you should either write ff or perhaps sf on the first note. With rapid notes like that, it's not going to make much difference, as long as you indicate the roll is loud.

I've never seen a dynamic used with a bracket like the example above. It may or may not be understood. Since most or all other composers have done without, you might reconsider.

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:09 pm

Thank you for that.
motet wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:43 pm
No, just that there are many more people there willing to chime in, perhaps hundreds. Several of them work for publishers. I've learned a lot there.

I should have said dynamics are usually underneath a specific note to indicate where the dynamic begins. sf is kind of special since it implies a sharp attack that's stronger than the rest of the note (see the Piston diagram David posted), hence it doesn't make sense applied to more than one note. It sounds to me like you should either write ff or perhaps sf on the first note. With rapid notes like that, it's not going to make much difference, as long as you indicate the roll is loud.

I've never seen a dynamic used with a bracket like the example above. It may or may not be understood. Since most or all other composers have done without, you might reconsider.

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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by Michel R E » Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:30 am

have you considered writing a single chord and placing a "roll" articulation next to it, with your sfz underneath?

I AM a classical concert pianist, for over 50 years, and would not understand the intention of what you are writing.
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by John Ruggero » Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:07 am

The accented rolled chord occurred to me as well, Michael, and I think that it is a good solution, if the composer is not concerned about an evenly-spaced quintuplet, although that could be specified in a footnote.

Having the complete context, another possibility occurs to me: perhaps a sf on the first note followed by a cresc. hairpin under the group.

In any case, it does seem like an unusual effect and one not easily notated, in which case, it might need a description in a footnote.

It is a peculiarity that we have no symbol in standard usage for accenting groups of notes as a unit. Liszt invented one that he used for two or three notes. It looks like an inverted v connecting the end notes. As far as I know, it never came into common usage.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by musicus » Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:14 am

I am trying different solutions. I think the rolled chord (meas.1) looks a bit too clumpy. What do you think of my solution in meas.2? I am imitating a trombone slide here. Your suggestion about a cresc. mark is a possibility. See attached below. Thanks.
John Ruggero wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:07 am
The accented rolled chord occurred to me as well, Michael, and I think that it is a good solution, if the composer is not concerned about an evenly-spaced quintuplet, although that could be specified in a footnote.

Having the complete context, another possibility occurs to me: perhaps a sf on the first note followed by a cresc. hairpin under the group.

In any case, it does seem like an unusual effect and one not easily notated, in which case, it might need a description in a footnote.

It is a peculiarity that we have no symbol in standard usage for accenting groups of notes as a unit. Liszt invented one that he used for two or three notes. It looks like v connecting the end notes. As far as I know, it never came into common usage.
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by Anders Hedelin » Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:50 am

David suggested to write the word sforzando out in full, even if that usually is associated with single notes. What about rinf. or rinforzato (reinforced), which may go also for groups of notes or even phrases?

In this case, if rinf. were to appear at every roulade, my thought is that it would be understood to reinforce the roulades only, without any need for cancelling.

rinf. might be slightly less known than sfz, so an option could be rinf. with a footnote?
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Re: tuplet dynamic

Post by John Ruggero » Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:29 pm

Musicus, if you are imitating a trombone slide, then by all means indicate that in words. I myself would use an asterisk and footnote to avoid cluttering the music, but it could also be in the music with or without parentheses, or quotation marks as you have it.

I think Anders' idea of a rinf. is certainly something to be considered.

Here is an example of Lizst's collective accent from the Mephisto Waltz no. 1:
Liszt accent.jpeg
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