Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

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Anders Hedelin
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:39 am

Oneiroi wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:20 pm
How did you beam through 3 measures though? Can't seem to be able to do it with the Patterson plug-in...did you do it manually with the Beam Angle tool?
No, Patterson didn't do all of it, so the last extension is made with the beam extension tool. In order to get rid of the flag on the last eighth I created a tuplet of '1 quarter in the space of 1 eighth'. Of course the beam also needed some adjustment with the beam angle tool.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

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Anders Hedelin
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:45 am

As you might have discovered, Patterson beam over barlines messes up with the ties, so they'll have to be corrected with the tie tool.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:32 am

John Ruggero wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:21 am
There remains a tiny, barely-visible remnant of the 32 beam stub that you might disregard or cover over with a white rectangle, if this is for publication.
Actually, and possibly only for publication purposes as John says, there is a way to get rid of the 32nd beam stub completely. (The example below is just started, to make a point.)
Quintuple without 32nd stub.PNG
Here the third note actually is a 32nd, parading as a 16th, i.e. the 32nd is made into a tuplet of '1 16th in the space of 1 32nd' and then altered to a 16th. Finale can be quite entertaining at times.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by John Ruggero » Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:15 pm

That's brilliant, Anders, and applicable to other situations. One learns so much on these forums.

The way I was able to do it was to first place three sixteenths in the 3/16 measure. Then make the last 16th a 32nd in the space of a 16th as you describe, and then make the whole measure a quintuplet of 32nd notes, in effect nested tuplets. No beam stub at all! Was that your process?

The Patterson doesn't seem to work with the nested tuplets, so one can just extend the beams:
beam over barline nested tuplet.jpeg
beam over barline nested tuplet.jpeg (9.78 KiB) Viewed 782 times
.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:28 pm

John Ruggero wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:15 pm
The way I was able to do it was to first place three sixteenths in the 3/16 measure. Then make the last 16th a 32nd in the space of a 16th as you describe, and then make the whole measure a quintuplet of 32nd notes, in effect nested tuplets. No beam stub at all! Was that your process?

The Patterson doesn't seem to work with the nested tuplets, so one can just extend the beams:
I'm not sure that I followed your process quite. Anyway, I started with a quintuplet of 32nds consisting of 16th, 16th and 32nd, applied a tuplet to the single 32nd - 1 16th in the space of 1 32nd - and changed the 32nd to a 16th.
If I'd finished the job, I'd used your method from an earlier post: hidden the 32nd in the second measure, removed the tie from the page, and fixed the beam with the Beam extension and Beam angle tools.

You are right - there's a lot to be learned from these pages. Thank you very much for your tip, John!
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by John Ruggero » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:33 pm

Anders, I couldn't apply the 16th = 32nd after making the whole measure a quintuplet, so I did that first. I do nested tuplets so rarely that I forget how to do it, so I did it the way I could, being "disinclined" to look it up again.

I hate to say this, but I think that tuplets over the bar lines are a non-issue in Dorico.

Yes, the civil exchange of ideas on these notation (and other) forums is admirable and gives one a little hope.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Oneiroi » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:41 pm

Interesting, I never thought of doing that 1 : 1 tuplet trick. Could potentially be very useful!

This being said, I omitted the 1:1 tuplet trick and simply changed the last 32nd for a 16th note (Check for Extra Notes is unchecked) and it seems to be doing just fine. Do you guys see any disadvantage with that? Seems to look good in the part too.
Screen Shot 2021-09-10 at 9.12.05 AM.png
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Tuplet Over Barline.musx
(87.3 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

Anders Hedelin
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:51 pm

Oneiroi wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:41 pm
This being said, I omitted the 1:1 tuplet trick and simply changed the last 32nd for a 16th note (Check for Extra Notes is unchecked) and it seems to be doing just fine. Do you guys see any disadvantage with that? Seems to look good in the part too.
If your needs are to have it work visually, there's no reason to complicate it. When it comes to playback, I don't know, because I stopped using that years ago.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by motet » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:13 pm

I haven't been following this all that closely, but Wess's method, modified slightly by me works for this. Playback is correct and the measures have the correct number of beats so you don't have to uncheck "check for extra notes." There's no tiny stub to hide.

Write two "5 32nds in the space of 6 32nds" and tie them together, with the added trick that you can change the final 32nd to a 16th in the first measure without Finale complaining of overloading--it's just visual. Use JW Change to hide the first 32nd of the second measure an remove it from spacing. Use the Beam Extension tool to connect the two halves, and the Tie Tool to move the ties off the page.
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0975.png
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by motet » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:21 pm

Here is the .musx file.
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Oneiroi
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Oneiroi » Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:34 pm

Awesome, thanks everyone for your help! Much appreciated.

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