Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

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Oneiroi
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Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Oneiroi » Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:52 pm

What would be the easiest way to accomplish this notation?
Screen Shot 2021-09-07 at 1.39.39 PM.png
  • Time signature is 3/16
  • There are other instruments simultaneously playing different rhythmic structures
  • Beams and rhythmic values are meant to be grouped according to the musical idea and phrasing
I have various ideas in mind but they all seem very tedious. I'm curious to hear your different takes on the simplest solution to it!

Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by John Ruggero » Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:12 pm

Using plugins>Note, beam and rest editing>Paterson lite>beam over barlines>Create
beaming example.jpeg
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by motet » Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:14 pm

For the glyph above, you could use the Shape Designer (not easy), but perhaps just make a graphic. Do something like this, then use the Graphic tool to export a the top portion as a selection (.pdf works well) and import that where needed.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Oneiroi » Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:53 pm

John Ruggero wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:12 pm
Using plugins>Note, beam and rest editing>Paterson lite>beam over barlines>Create

beaming example.jpeg
Thank you, I've been using this plug-in a lot, but in this case I would love to have the dotted 8ths rather than the tied notes. I know it's probably easier to go with the tied notes, but I'm curious to learn new ways of working.

I managed to do it by using the Patterson plug-in for beaming over the bar line, then hiding the first note of the measure with JW Change (clear notehead, clear stem and hide ledger lines), then hiding the 16th beams with the beam extension tool. I guess I could just add the dots as an articulation (and yes, the glyphs would probably be screenshots). First steps are quick thanks to keyboard shortcuts and the JW Change sequence editor, but do you guys know of any quick way to hide only the 16th beams?
Screen Shot 2021-09-07 at 4.48.14 PM.png
Also, the Patterson "Beam over Barlines" plug-in doesn't seem to be able to create one long beam over multiple measures...any ideas?

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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by John Ruggero » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:10 am

If it is just an experiment to see if you can do it that way, sure. But if you are actually writing this for a real performance, I think the musicians would be confused by such a notation, as I was, until I worked it out. It's actually far more confusing than the old practice of positioning a prolongation dot after the bar line to avoid a tie, since the measures appear to have too many beats in them.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by miker » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:40 am

Can you give that measure a larger time signature, enter your figure, and put in the barlines as expressions?
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by motet » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:58 am

I agree with John.

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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:02 am

And I agree with John and motet. As a composer I would prioritize readability, and the chance of a correct execution.

Eliott Carter used some tricky rhythmic patterns where some of the instruments played "according to" the time signature, while others could have a written-out accelerando or ritardando. As far as I can recall he notated it "traditionally" with ties over barlines. It's quite enough difficult as it is, but at least he gave the players a fair chance. And, at the time, his most tricky music was performed by the very best of avantguarde musicians only.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by John Ruggero » Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:39 pm

It's interesting that such notation is actually practical when there is a second voice moving against it in faster, even note values, like sixteenth notes. One sees this in keyboard music as a way to simplify the notation, for example from Chopin's Prelude in D:
example beaming over barline.jpeg
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:56 pm

John Ruggero wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:39 pm
It's interesting that such notation is actually practical when there is a second voice moving against it in faster, even note values, like sixteenth notes. One sees this in keyboard music as a way to simplify the notation, for example from Chopin's Prelude in D:
Here, though, because of the consistent sixteenths no one could mistake the placements of the irregular eighths. Remove the sixteenths, and it would be quite puzzling.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by John Ruggero » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:33 pm

Exactly. Which is why the OP placed the explanatory values above the notes. But these are also somewhat puzzling at first sight and unnecessary if standard notation is used.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Oneiroi » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:54 pm

Interesting dilemma indeed. I should point out that in my case, I'm doing a transcription and therefore want to stay as close as possible to the original notation, which is most probably the composer's choice.

I personally think there are points to be made on both sides. Yes, in terms of readability, John's suggestion is definitely the best choice. But as a composer, I think sometimes it's worth compromising a bit of sight-readability in order to convey most clearly the musical intention. Here, I like that you can clearly see which notes are musically (in terms of phrasing / musical idea) grouped together. The idea of wanting to hear different overlapping rhythms is also made more visually obvious with the dotted 8ths rather than ties. In short, the dots are closer to the original musical intention of the composer and the ties are a compromise in order to fit this idea inside the global rhythmical structure.

It's also worth noting that this passage is written for a flute solist, that the tempo is rather slow and that the music overall seeks to eliminate any sense of steady pulse. Of course, one would never notate such an idea for an orchestra who's most likely sight-reading, nor at a fast tempo! :P

Here's another example found in the same piece which imo finds a great compromise between readability and musical intention/phrasing :
Screen Shot 2021-09-08 at 1.25.05 PM.png
The beaming makes the 2 phrases clearly distinct and emphasizes the fact that the first beat is clearly the end of a phrase and has no special emphasis/accent. Yet it's still easy to decipher the rhythm (well...not harder than if it was notated conventionally imo).
That being said, for the original passage I decided to go with John's advice because I don't want to take the time to create those glyphs, haha! For those curious, this is what it sounds like : https://youtu.be/iQkSAwWwfJM?t=34


Now here's another challenge this piece is giving me.
Screen Shot 2021-09-08 at 3.43.23 PM.jpg
I see 2 ways of copying this : one would be to create a long measure and place artificial barlines (using shape expressions I guess?). I've never tried that so I wonder how efficient it is at keeping the spacing good (...also what about the parts?).

The other solution would be to add extra notes in the first measure and keep the second measure empty. I did that and it seems to work pretty well, however I can't for the life of me place any shape or expression or articulation correctly on any note after the first one of that 5:6. Every time I try to drag an item around that measure it just goes berzerk and keeps jumping all over the place. It also positions differently when I click on it and when I update the layout.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by John Ruggero » Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:34 pm

Regarding the quintiplet over two measures. Perhaps one could split the quintuplet of 16ths into two quintuplets of five 32nd notes in each measure. The first would be written as 16th, 16th, 32nd and the other would be 32nd 16th, 16th. Then hide the first note (the 32nd note) of the second measure. (No numbers or brackets should be showing and don't tie the two 32nd notes.) Extend the 8th and 16th beam of the first measure to meet the corresponding ones in the second measure. All that remains is to hide the 32nd beam stub in the first measure (maybe again with the beam extension tool or some better way) and add the tuplet indication as an expression or whatever. This would be graphically correct but playback would repeat the second 32nd note.

It would be even easier if you simply tied the two 32nd notes and didn't hide the second. Then you could use the beam over bar lines tool and it would play back correctly.

But someone who specializes in this sort of thing probably has a better way or can refine this.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by motet » Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:21 pm

User Wess here posted some tuplets-over-the-baseline techniques a wile back.

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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by John Ruggero » Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:10 am

But put too many over the baseline, your performance will suffer, and you are probably going to lose (the match.)
Last edited by John Ruggero on Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:24 pm

You had some rather convincing points about why to do it this way, Oneiroi. Here's another compromise, almost the same as John's suggestion above, but taking into account the beams as indicators of 'motives'. It should be almost 'sight-readable', with the benefit of less cluttering, not needing the explanatory glyphs.
Beams over barlines.JPG
(I think that however you do it, there's no really simple way.)
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by John Ruggero » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:34 pm

John Ruggero wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:34 pm
Regarding the quintiplet over two measures. Perhaps one could split the quintuplet of 16ths into two quintuplets of five 32nd notes in each measure. The first would be written as 16th, 16th, 32nd and the other would be 32nd 16th, 16th. Then hide the first note (the 32nd note) of the second measure. (No numbers or brackets should be showing and don't tie the two 32nd notes.) Extend the 8th and 16th beam of the first measure to meet the corresponding ones in the second measure. All that remains is to hide the 32nd beam stub in the first measure (maybe again with the beam extension tool or some better way) and add the tuplet indication as an expression or whatever. This would be graphically correct but playback would repeat the second 32nd note
I just realized that one could tie the two 32nds but move the tie off the page and it would play back correctly.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:12 pm

I think the method of creating the quintuplet depends on the context. If you have many parts needing proper barlines, John's suggestion probably would be better. If you have but a few, it should be easier to double the meter (to 6/16), hide the TS, and insert a fake barline (in all parts) as an expression:
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:41 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:12 pm
I think the method of creating the quintuplet depends on the context. If you have many parts needing proper barlines, John's suggestion probably would be better. If you have but a few, it should be easier to double the meter (to 6/16), hide the TS, and insert a fake barline (in all parts) as an expression:
Indeed that could work.
Beware the measure numbers, though.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by motet » Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:04 pm

This is worth watching:
wessmusic wrote:Here is another method for creating tuplets over the barline.
It turned out that my mic. was not switched on, however everything is so simple, so that the explanations are unnecessary.
This video, I believe, covers three of the most common scenarios.

https://youtu.be/O-r6QolMCe4

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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:12 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:04 pm
This is worth watching:
wessmusic wrote:Here is another method for creating tuplets over the barline.
It turned out that my mic. was not switched on, however everything is so simple, so that the explanations are unnecessary.
This video, I believe, covers three of the most common scenarios.

https://youtu.be/O-r6QolMCe4
Yes, this is very good, but perhaps not the only way? Or, always the fastest?
What if you later need to change measure widths or move measures to another system? And how would it appear in parts?
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by motet » Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:39 pm

Score vs parts would be a dilemma. The beam extensions would likely survive changing measure widths, though perhaps the aesthetic placement of the tuplet number would not. He presents a different solution when the tuplet crosses a system break. Like Patterson beam over barlines, it's best done at the last possible moment.

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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Oneiroi » Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:20 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:24 pm
You had some rather convincing points about why to do it this way, Oneiroi. Here's another compromise, almost the same as John's suggestion above, but taking into account the beams as indicators of 'motives'. It should be almost 'sight-readable', with the benefit of less cluttering, not needing the explanatory glyphs.
Beams over barlines.JPG
(I think that however you do it, there's no really simple way.)
Nice! That looks like the perfect middle path to me. How did you beam through 3 measures though? Can't seem to be able to do it with the Patterson plug-in...did you do it manually with the Beam Angle tool?

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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by Oneiroi » Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:25 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:12 pm
I think the method of creating the quintuplet depends on the context. If you have many parts needing proper barlines, John's suggestion probably would be better. If you have but a few, it should be easier to double the meter (to 6/16), hide the TS, and insert a fake barline (in all parts) as an expression:
This would be the ideal solution, but I have a 2-staves guitar part and a string quartet 4-staves group which need bars going through staves. I guess it's doable but probably a hassle to realign the expression barlines (needed for the parts) with the Smart Shape group barlines all the time.

I think John's suggestion would be the best solution because I can keep barlines, measure numbers and note position consistent. However, I can't remove that darn 32nd beam stub. I've joined the beams over the barlines through Patterson's plug-in, so maybe that's why it's messing with the Beam Extension tool when I try to adjust the 32nd beam.
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Re: Beams and Rhythmic Values Over Barlines

Post by John Ruggero » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:21 am

Using the Patterson is probably what's causing that. I was able to get rid of the stub with the beam extension tool set to 32nd notes. Then I extended the 8th and 16th beams from the second measure back to join the previous measure. There remains a tiny, barely-visible remnant of the 32 beam stub that you might disregard or cover over with a white rectangle, if this is for publication.
quintuplet over barline.jpeg
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