dead horse

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ebiggs1
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dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:09 pm

Not wanting to continue to beat the dead horse but I got to spend another day with my Sibelius power user. I am more impressed with it each time we do this. It seems to me that MM is kicking and dragging about being pulled into the modern era. Forgetting the notation ability of either software, Sibelius just works smoother. The screen scrolls better. It GUI is, hate to say, more up to date lacking for a better word. Their thought process of what is where is somewhat puzzling to me, though.

We all know, or at least all us old timers know, there is nothing Finale can't do in music if you only can figure out how to tell it to do it.
Thank heaven we have plug-in developers that can figure out how to do what Finale should do. And for certain I would not buy Sibelius because it can use the iPad but MM really needs to take a long look at how more advanced Sibelius is.

WHen you scroll Finale, the hand, the screen blanks out. The mixer is archaic and a joke really. The print function sorely needs a complete overhaul. Just for starters. At this point I am too old to switch. That is not an option but I do want Finale to be as good as it can be. I want it to be the best. At this point it is not.

It seems like Finale is just a hobby to the folks at MM.
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RimasG
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Re: dead horse

Post by RimasG » Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:14 pm

I fully agree.
When Sibelius got into the hands of AVID, many thought there would be no progress, as the main development team turned to Steinberg, and AVID specializes in other areas. But these were incorrect predictions. Sibelius continued to step on the path of progress, and the part of the team that went to Steinberg developed a completely new professional product over the years, which he is constantly successfully improving. And this is no news. For fans of the Finale, this does not inspire any optimism, because so far, seeing such a situation, MakeMusic has practically not made real progress and is digging into insignificant details.

The program lacks stability, poor audio engine, nothing new in writing technology for 20 years. Can only be praised for "linked parts". And this is no news. For fans of the Finale, this does not inspire any optimism, because so far, seeing such a situation, MakeMusic has practically not made real progress and is digging into insignificant details. The program lacks stability, poor audio engine, unstable navigation, nothing new in writing technology for 20 years. Can only be praised for "linked parts".

It would be logical to throw everything away and take Sibelius or Dorico, but re-learning requires a lot of precious time, which is always missing anyway. And my age is also no longer the time to learn everything quickly. It’s hard to replace old reflexes with new ones. Sad and unfortunate, but it remains to take a deep sigh and enjoy what you have. But MM seems to care little about it.
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Re: dead horse

Post by dankreider » Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:18 pm

Although I switched over to Dorico three years ago, I continue to use Finale from time to time as needed. And I’m really sad to see the incredible neglect on the part of MakeMusic. Finale was really such a top-drawer program for decades, and we all benefit from Finale, Dorico, and Sibelius continuing to be actively developed. I’m sure the developers at MakeMusic are doing their best and are competent, but without the resources of a committed parent company, there’s little they can do.

I’m not a clairvoyant, but I think MakeMusic is beyond hope now. I predict the continuing development of Sibelius and the rapid growth of Dorico (and MuseScore!) spell eventual doom for Finale, which will become truly “legacy software” in the next few years. MakeMusic’s market share is mostly long-time users at this point who are too deeply invested to switch. That’s fine, and Finale works great for them. But new users will be increasingly difficult to attract. And if updates continue to be as underwhelming as 27, fewer and fewer users will even pay for updates. It’s a downwards revenue spiral. Will MM give more attention to a revenue stream that’s drying up, or less?

I very much hope I’m wrong.
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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:37 pm

I very much hope I’m wrong.
I fear you are right though. It just might be time to bite the bullet and switch. I truly hate to.
... without the resources of a committed parent company, there’s little they can do.
It always boils down to one of two, or both for that matter, reasons. One they don't have the money to or they don't know how.
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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:42 pm

I must admit for my purpose Finale works as it is. However, that is because of plug-ins. Thank heaven for folks that are talented enough to write them. The JW Change and JW Polyphony are great help but here again I fear these are at an end too. The greatest plug-in ever and one I consider mandatory is Perfect Layout. It is nothing short of amazing.

And, of course NotePerformer 3. Not to mention it seems there is little interest in upgrading Garritan.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:10 pm

mildly off-topic, but since Dorico was brought up... anyone having luck (ie: "sure, it works perfectly, no problem") with Dorico on an anterior version of Windows (ie: not Windows 10)?

I'm using Windows 8.1, but Dorico does not "officially" support anything other than Windows 10.
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Re: dead horse

Post by dankreider » Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:27 pm

I’ve not used it myself, but I’ve heard from other users who are running it successfully on Windows 7, as long as Aero Glass is enabled. I would assume 8 and 8.1 would work as well.

You could easily secure a free 30-day trial and give it a go.
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Re: dead horse

Post by motet » Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:49 pm

You need a 64-bit version of the OS for Dorico.

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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:53 pm

Windows 8.1 is 64 bit
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Re: dead horse

Post by dankreider » Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:56 pm

motet wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:49 pm
You need a 64-bit version of the OS for Dorico.
Officially maybe, but as I said, several folks on the forum have said they’re using Dorico 3 with Windows 7 with no problems.
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Re: dead horse

Post by motet » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:06 am

There's a 64-bit version of Windows 7. Spreadbury himself told me you need a 64-bit system.

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Re: dead horse

Post by John Ruggero » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:22 am

What I find even more frustrating than Finale's malaise is that none of these GUI products gives the user complete control over all elements of music engraving. This after so many years of software development. But Finale has fewer show-stoppers than the others and they can be worked around. So I stay with Finale.
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Re: dead horse

Post by David Ward » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:14 am

John Ruggero wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:22 am
What I find even more frustrating than Finale's malaise is that none of these GUI products gives the user complete control over all elements of music engraving. This after so many years of software development. But Finale has fewer show-stoppers than the others and they can be worked around. So I stay with Finale.
I'm very glad that I first learnt to write music by hand and that this was what I did for the bulk of my musical career. Yes, Finale and its rivals save huge amounts of time and money, but I sometimes find myself asking at what cost in less material things?

A year or two ago I offered a string quartet some smart Finale-engraved parts to replace the manuscript ones they currently have of a quartet of mine written in 1994. They declined on the grounds that the manuscript parts copied by me reveal the essence of the piece.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Ian Stewart » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:28 am

Really good reply David. The main reason I use Finale, and now mainly Dorico, is beacuse once the score is completed I don't have to copy out the parts - in other words, writing the work out twice. It is also easier to convert to PDF and send instantly to ensembles anywhere. However I do agree that handwriting parts give an intuitive insight into the composer's music.

I still write the original work on manuscript paper in pencil, again there is something connected between the mind and handwritten manuscripts. I read an interview with a young American poet who said that she wrote her peoms in a notebook, in pencil; only using a word processor for the final layout. She was asked if she had a favourite, special supplier of notebooks; her was reply was that she used the cheap ones students use, that she buys from the usual college stationers.
Last edited by Ian Stewart on Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Jay Emmes » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:52 pm

The difference between Dorico and Finale is, that Finale is dying and will not be resuscitated by MakeMusic (whatever the reason), while Dorico is a youngster growing into adulthood. And as always: learning a new trick gets harder the older you get. So, shouldn't we take the hurdle while we're still too good for Shady Acres or are we going to wait until Finale is abandoned by MM (or whoever owns it by then) and we will have no longer any choice.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Jay Emmes » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:59 pm

David Ward wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:14 am
They declined on the grounds that the manuscript parts copied by me reveal the essence of the piece.
Just curious: how does the manuscript reveal the essence of the piece in a way that cannot be done with notational software?

My experience is that a piece once learned looks unfamiliar when presented in a different edition. Could that be the rather more plausible explanation for their preference for the manuscript?
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Re: dead horse

Post by Zoots » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:49 pm

...
My experience is that a piece once learned looks unfamiliar when presented in a different edition. Could that be the rather more plausible explanation for their preference for the manuscript?
I have often been surprised how a learned piece can seem "unlearned" when presented differently but is really the same.
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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:18 pm

They declined on the grounds that the manuscript parts copied by me reveal the essence of the piece.
I agree they are beautiful, at least most are. But I don't see any connection of a hand written piece being any better as some are actually difficult to read. Hand written for a decorative chart but Finale for a production.

The fact you don't have to write individual parts and make sure the transposing instruments are correctly done is huge.
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Re: dead horse

Post by RimasG » Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:46 pm

Jay Emmes wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:59 pm
My experience is that a piece once learned looks unfamiliar when presented in a different edition. Could that be the rather more plausible explanation for their preference for the manuscript?

The matter is very simple: when the musicians received the manuscript, it was “warmed up” by their interpretation, with all the articulation, additional dynamics and agogics, etc., they visually became accustomed and saw in the manuscript not only the score but also the whole work with the artist’s concept. After receiving the printed notes, calligraphy is not essential. Musicians no longer see a map of their interpretation, which can also be tied to a “warm manuscript”. Thus, a lot of graphic work needs to be put back into the typographic text in order to “warm it up” and to make it a “map of interpretation” again.
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Re: dead horse

Post by motet » Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:35 pm

I have no nostalgia for handwritten music. I'm sure whatever subtleties of spacing, etc., are at play in David's anecdote can be accomplished with typeset music, but perhaps with much hand-tweaking.

I spent a decade mastering Finale, so I'll continue to use it as long as the company stays afloat (which, I agree, looks precarious). I don't need new features at this point, so will probably update rarely. It does seem that focusing on SMuFL, for example, which likely not many people care about or want, will result in fewer upgrades being bought and put them further in the hole.

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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:50 pm

I spent a decade mastering Finale, so I'll continue to use it as long as the company stays afloat ...
I am right there with you! But I don't think we even care if "the company stays afloat". What we have now does work especially with the support from NotePerformer3 and Perfect Layout and a few JW plug-ins. It is just sickening to me to see Finale fall by the way side after so long of an association.

The two biggies they bragged about smufl and file sharing mean nothing to my and my way of music. Update the mixer and the navigation tools and the print function, that would help me for starters. A more modern GUI would be nice too.
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Re: dead horse

Post by miker » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:34 pm

ebiggs1 wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:50 pm
The two biggies they bragged about smufl and file sharing mean nothing to my and my way of music. Update the mixer and the navigation tools and the print function, that would help me for starters. A more modern GUI would be nice too.
I agree about smufl and sharing. In my life, mixer and nav tools and print are fine for me, too. I want the lyric tool overhauled. I guess the point is that each of us have our own “top of the list” and rather than fixing all of those, they choose to do something that (in their minds) is the best use of limited ability, money, and time.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Ian Stewart » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:48 pm

I have given up hoping that the Graphic Tool box can be expanded. Trying to produce complex graphics in a miniscule box is frustrating.
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Re: dead horse

Post by motet » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:03 pm

You mean the Shape Designer?

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Re: dead horse

Post by Ian Stewart » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:45 pm

motet wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:03 pm
You mean the Shape Designer?
That's the one - I get so worked up about it I can't even remember the correct name.

I now use graphic software and import it into Finale or Dorico, but an expandible Shape Designer would be so much better for some of my scores.
Last edited by Ian Stewart on Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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