dead horse

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ebiggs1
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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:25 pm

Perfect Layout will do it all for you, but at an additional cost. It's almost like Finale is "Finale Elements", and paying for PL is the additional price for "Finale Pro".
Perfect Layout needs to be a standard part of Finale as do a couple of the JW plug-ins. Of course PL and JW need to be compensated for their work so perhaps there could be levels of Finale. Just like Sibelius offers today. Finale "Ultimate" could be offered at the top tier.
It could even have better, larger, sound packages with upgraded audio input and output options.

I don't see the problem here since MM sees fit to include some of the TG Tools plug-in. Finale could be once again the world leader in notation software instead of dying on the vine.
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Anders Hedelin
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Re: dead horse

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:36 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:12 am
... Dorico may be better for some jobs, and Finale better for others.

However, I still believe that Finale runs the risk of becoming like SCORE: a quaint, archaic, esoteric piece of software, which may produce outstanding results, but is in danger of becoming of a historical tool from the past.
I think the first statement explains a lot of the differences vented here, as so often. There's a huge difference between making a big score with a tight deadline for a (one) performance, and to carefully prepare a score for publishing. At least it should be.

The second statement makes me a bit low. It suggests that preparing well worked out scores would, in itself, be something esoteric and obsolete. There are some signs that it is already so, with some publishers at least, but that's very, very sad.
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John Ruggero
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Re: dead horse

Post by John Ruggero » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:23 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:12 am
John, given that the 'tools' in the side panels are entirely dependent upon what mode each window/tab is in, having them independently floating makes no sense. You can show or hide the side panels at the touch of a key; again per-window or tab. Why do you need to modify them? (Once you've learnt the key commands, you don't need them much anyway.)
I am at a disadvantage trying to explain in detail why the Dorico workspace was so cumbersome for me during the two 30-day trials, since I don't own Dorico and don't know the terminology. But the fact is that it was cumbersome and the showing and hiding of panels didn't really help, given the area consumed by the numerous sources on my monitors. The fact that my monitors are often in portrait orientation made it even worse. And since I have to do a lot of non-standard things, I needed constant access to the panel that shows all the options, which was sometimes running right off the monitor and which I would have arranged vertically and out of the way, if that had been possible.

The workspace issue may ultimately be my biggest problem with Dorico, and I have brought it up before with the same reaction from Dorico users. But this reaction really doesn't help me. The fact is that I need the same flexibility of workspace that one gets with any of the major desktop publishing software products like InDesign and Photoshop etc.
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Re: dead horse

Post by BuonTempi » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:01 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:36 pm
I think the first statement explains a lot of the differences vented here, as so often. There's a huge difference between making a big score with a tight deadline for a (one) performance, and to carefully prepare a score for publishing. At least it should be.

The second statement makes me a bit low. It suggests that preparing well worked out scores would, in itself, be something esoteric and obsolete. There are some signs that it is already so, with some publishers at least, but that's very, very sad.
You're implying that only Finale can produce 'well worked-out scores for publishing', and without it, we wouldn't have such scores. That's demonstrably not true.

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Re: dead horse

Post by miker » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:09 pm

ebiggs1 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:25 pm
Perfect Layout needs to be a standard part of Finale as do a couple of the JW plug-ins. Of course PL and JW need to be compensated for their work so perhaps there could be levels of Finale. Just like Sibelius offers today. Finale "Ultimate" could be offered at the top tier.
It could even have better, larger, sound packages with upgraded audio input and output options.
And which edition should they add? Will you pay the additional $100 for it? What if adding PL, which is a new, written from the ground up program, breaks something when integrated with the old Finale?

They've dropped the limited versions of Finale. I doubt they are going to bring them back, in a form like you describe.

If you like the program, buy it, and use it. Otherwise, I don't see where your fanboy posts add much value to the discussion.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:10 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:01 pm
You're implying that only Finale can produce 'well worked-out scores for publishing', and without it, we wouldn't have such scores. That's demonstrably not true.
Well, that depends on which kinds of scores.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:56 pm

I don't doubt that there might be very well worked out scores made with other programs than Finale. I do doubt that other programs can meet all the needs of more unusual, let's say modernist music. Finale may not have been made for that, initially, but is surprisingly adaptable to all kinds of freaky notation. And even in more traditional notation you have more choices for fine-tuning with this program. I have no wish to be a partisan for Finale, but I do resent it being called "soon esoteric".
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RimasG
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Re: dead horse

Post by RimasG » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:53 pm

Now Finale is like an overgrown product from other plug-ins developers. Looking closely at the Menu, a lot of features are unnecessary, but a lot of valuable TG and JW plug-ins are not included, although in practice they are like part of the Finale. From what the default Finale plug-ins offer, I practically don't use them. I bought TGTools pro, downloaded JW Fit music. In principle, that would be enough.

There are still many extras living from the Finale. Perfec layout, Note performer, etc. These are inexpensive programs. But don’t Finale designers understand the needs of program users? Why is the program evolving in strange directions, ignoring the essential needs of musicians? I am faced with an assessment: Sibelius was created by musicians who have IT skills, because of the musicians, and in the Finale, by IT experts who know the music but do not really understand what the musicians really need. The most important thing for a developer is to understand the process of writing and composing notes.
In the case of the Finale, it often seems that basically the developers are oriented towards the beginner, and they don't care much about the profs: they will take care of themselves. Marketing is here, but is it productive?

A dead horse ... Hardly. As long as our “veterans” population is alive, the Finale will live out of inertia. But ... anyway, I love the Finale. It, though imperfect, helped me make a career, albeit angry at the details, basically most appreciated for the possibilities of individualization and the practically perfect layout, including JW Fit music. I have a flexible Finale interface that I can shape according to my needs. Overall, I love the Finale and I'am a fan of it, even with all its flaws. But it is disappointing that in the Finale, once a leader in computer notation, he relinquishes positions. Maybe someone will buy and start to develop further, but the technological concept of writing notes itself should not change. Here is the key advantage of the Finale. So, I love Finale even with all its flaws :)
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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:01 am

Well said and I totally agree. As long as there’s plug-in makers we are golden.
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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:03 am

I truly wonder sometimes if MM has any composers on staff.
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Re: dead horse

Post by motet » Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:16 am

RimasG wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:53 pm
As long as our “veterans” population is alive, the Finale will live out of inertia.
This veteran only occasionally upgrades. If the company doesn't make enough money and goes out of business, we're all in trouble, since it's a licensed product. I think it would be prudent to make MusicXML copies of everything just in case. Does anyone know the FinaleScript way to do this to a batch of files?

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Re: dead horse

Post by mmike » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:26 am

Does anyone know the FinaleScript way to do this to a batch of files?
moved the reply away from the dying horse to a new thread ....
by the way, is it (how?) possible to delete a reply one has posted? I see no option for this anywhere.
Last edited by mmike on Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:29 am

unfortunately, it would seem import of XML files into some other music programs isn't always a success.
I tried importing my violin concerto from Finale into Dorico, and it got the first movement right (mostly), and around half the 2nd movement, with absolutely none of the 3rd movement.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:08 pm

In many churches nowadays you can light a candle for someone, or possibly something. My candle would be for the Finale developers to do one last thing before they possibly quit: to shape up the XML feature, with a customarily good explanation in the user manual.

Talking of the user manual, there's a kind of 'theme' on these pages to whine about that. "Why don't they...?" "Why do they...!"
I've come across a number of other manuals, fx that of Adobe Acrobat, to pick one, and in its hard-to-find, seldom-complete instructions, there's a message between the lines: "If you are so ignorant that you need a manual, you yourself are to blame. Not us." With Finale's user manual it's nothing like that. While it certainly contains some mistakes, I find it genuinely helpful, and really user-friendly, for pros and beginners alike. Warts and all.
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Peter Thomsen
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Re: dead horse

Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:10 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:08 pm
… I've come across a number of other manuals, fx that of Adobe Acrobat, to pick one, and in its hard-to-find, seldom-complete instructions, there's a message between the lines: "If you are so ignorant that you need a manual, you yourself are to blame. Not us." With Finale's user manual it's nothing like that. While it certainly contains some mistakes, I find it genuinely helpful, and really user-friendly, for pros and beginners alike. Warts and all.
Indeed.

For each dialog box the Finale manual tells
- How to get there,
- What it does.

I frequently miss that info when reading manuals for other programs.
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Re: dead horse

Post by PeterF » Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:38 am

David Ward wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:43 am
PeterF wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:18 am
… … …I’m very sorry to hear about the impending end of Finale… … …
I suspect this particular death notice may be a trifle premature, although nothing is immortal.
I didn't mean to be flippant. I'm just back after a long time with Finale 27. I had no clue about the Finale situation. Dorico, I have no clue with that machination. I need Finale for some MIDI work and recording in the next 6 months. It has never let me down with MIDI. Yeah, Sibelius makes my ukulele scores and TAB scores look good without effort and I love their webscores, but I score/input them first in Finale and then import as XML into Siberroo. Finale has the best note entry system for me.
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John Ruggero
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Re: dead horse

Post by John Ruggero » Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:17 pm

RimasG wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:53 pm
So, I love Finale even with all its flaws :)
Aside from the flexibility that you mentioned, I love Finale's slurs. With just a little bit of adjustment of the settings one can produce the best-looking slurs in the business. I would have a hard time giving that up.

Now if only the slurs could have more control points like Dorico, but I have been requesting that since 2000.
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Michel R E
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:44 am

this is amusing....

in Dorico, there is NO function at all for passing from one page to the next without actually opening a dialogue box and typing in the page number.

with Finale I just hit ctrl+Page Down to go to the next page.

I can't seem to identify any function in Dorico at all that would even let me redefine a key combo to go from one page to the next and back. the only thing that appears to exist is the option to open the dialogue box for entering the page number.

Doesn't this seem counterintuitive?
Doesn't this seem like the sort of thing a person who writes music would have though of before even make pretty slurs, or thinking of dividing projects into "flows", or making it nigh impossible to understand how to add the "simple" function of adding a text item to a title (like a dedication)?
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Re: dead horse

Post by RMK » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:34 pm

Michel R E wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:44 am
this is amusing....

in Dorico, there is NO function at all for passing from one page to the next without actually opening a dialogue box and typing in the page number.
Wrong.

I just opened a file and was able to navigate using the Home and End keys.

Perhaps you should become more familiar with the program before attempting to criticize.

Also, I doubt if anyone (besides Daniel S. perhaps) cares what software you use. If you are happy with Finale then stick with it.

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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:44 pm

No, not wrong.

The Home and End keys bring you to the top and bottom of the single page on which you are working. There is no feature at all in Dorico that brings you automatically to the top of the subsequent page, unless you change to the equivalent of Finale's Scroll view.

While you're busy defending Dorico, remember that attacking anyone who brings up a legitimate concern about the program will either drive them away (which I am sure you don't care about, but I'm sure Daniel does), or it will stop potential fixes and improvements from being brought up to the programming staff at Dorico.

I'm not "criticizing". I'm making a legitimate comment in comparing two software packages.

I also would not have paid for Dorico if I didn't intend to use it.
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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:20 pm

... it will stop potential fixes and improvements from being brought up to the programming staff at Dorico.
Do you really think the big three or four notation software makers read this forum? If they do, they do a great job ignoring it. It still comes down to money, not enough of, or ability of the programmers, not knowing how to.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:24 pm

sorry ebiggs, I didn't mean bringing problems up here. I have also commented on this issue on Dorico's Facebook page where staff seem to be very involved.
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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:34 pm

No, no you are fine. I enjoy your thoughts. Please don't stop. I look at the other packages but I don't get into them as deeply as some of you guys. I'm not that smart I guess. Not being able to turn the page easily is not good and something I missed when I looked at it.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:54 pm

aha, ok, so my better half (a computer programmer) has been helping me with this issue, and we appear to have found a minor bug in Dorico that ONLY affects horizontal scrolling.

It seems that the amount of "free space" for the "thumb" in the scroll bar MUST be equal to the perceived size of the thumb itself for the Home key to actually return to the default home position. If the page has been even mildly scrolled sideways from its default position, the Home key will not return.

This problem doesn't exist with the vertical scroll bar and the Page Up command. Regardless of the amount of room for the thumb, it always does return to its default position.

Anyway, we know that Dorico still has some growing issues, and that's fine as long as they get repaired.

I have to say, while Dorico IS difficult to transition to for a very long-time Finale user, I'm actually enjoying myself learning how it works.
It's not always obvious how to do things, sometimes a bit frustratingly obtuse. The help file does contain information you need, but sometimes leaves out steps. Of course, getting used to the Dorico jargon is also a task in itself.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
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XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
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Re: dead horse

Post by John Ruggero » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:18 pm

Continuing my litany of things I love about Finale, disliked about Dorico during my two trials, and would hate to give up:

I love Finale's layout system, and particularly the ability to move measures from one system to the next by using the arrow keys. I find this essential to be able to quickly compare layouts. I found Dorico's layout system as a whole to be a nightmare.

One often has not only to point out a problem on the Dorico forum but also to defend why it is necessary to fix it. This resistance is understandable given the fact that changes to the program are apparently not easy to make. For example, a decision was made by the Dorico designers that centered beaming would not be allowed for small intervals like a third. This was a blunder, and a work-around is possible, but, to my knowledge, it hasn't been fixed after a couple of years.

Another problem is that beam thickness can't be adjusted locally, at least last time I tried the program. That in itself prevents me from using Dorico. Fortunately, Finale does have a beam width tool, so I use Finale.

I have concluded that Dorico is not yet for those who do intricate, non-standard things with music notation and want more control over every aspect of it, rather than less. Such engravers will need Finale until Dorico is more mature, and hopefully Finale will still be viable until that happens.
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