dead horse

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:53 pm

Where the conflict comes and how we see it and the way MM sees it is, MM says there is a way to do "whatever" so there is no need to make any changes to Finale.

I think this is why they don't embrace Perfect Layout, IMHO, of course. However, that doesn't explain why they do offer JW amd Patterson plug-ins. I, if I remember correctly, I think TG Tools predates the Boulder crowd. Otherwise we may not have it either!
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Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:13 pm

MM aren't likely to incorporate PL into the program, ever. So, discussing this, is more like airing disappointments than contributing with anything constructive.
Personally I don't miss the features of PL in Finale. It wouldn't suit my workflow, nor my work motivation.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:51 pm

It wouldn't suit my workflow, nor my work motivation.
Everybody is different and they have different requirements. Yous is simply one. Mine is only one, too. There are features in Finale I never use, too, but I don't lobby against them being there for others. The jest of my reply was why MM embraces some plug-ins and not others.

No plug-in does anything that can't be done manually in Finale. In that sense there is no case for any of them.

My ability to be able to buy PL satisfies me because I have it. Whether MM ever decides to include it or not is moot to me. It does make me wonder what would be the case if there were no plug-in developers? BTW, almost seems to be the case now. Doesn't it? The lone exception is Perfect Layout.
...airing disappointments than contributing ...
Yes, it is disappointing because I want Finale to be the best. I want it to be viable for as long as I need it. I see the other competition catching up even moving ahead of Finale. My perhaps selfish persistence is to build a fire under MM and make them keep improving. That is the reason for the "dead horse" thread. Perhaps if we all post responses, enough responses, MM will offer more than "file sharing" in a forthcoming upgrade to Finale 28. Maybe not!
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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:09 pm

I doubt if MM reads this board.

Maybe the thread title can be changed to "One Trick Pony."

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Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:42 pm

I doubt if MM reads this board.
I fear you are correct, sir.
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Post by Zoots » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:47 pm

I think it would be interesting to have Daniel Spreadbury read this forum and discuss how some of the concerns in this thread and the other one where the "fine tuning" is not available in Dorico might be addressed in the future, if at all.
IMO, the issue is that Finale does not have interest in the desired development and bug fixes that are desired by its professional user-base.
Although I am years behind, make that light-years, in my use of Finale compared to most of you, I am continually disappointed at the lack of interest by Finale in correcting identified bug fixes and could not recommend it to my composer friend in who is presently using an outdated program because of that. Dorico may currently have its shortcomings but the horse is young, and definitely alive and kicking - and guess what it is likely to kick in the butt!
The Dorico - Finale discussion reminds me of the old days in computers - if you wanted to write real tight code you had to do it yourself in assembly language. Over the years, advances in compilers put a lot of clever assembly code writers to shame.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:07 pm

I am continually disappointed at the lack of interest by Finale in correcting identified bug fixes ...
Correction, I am continually disappointed at the lack of interest by Finale in anything! In two years they give use file sharing?
I guess smufl fonts was a big goal for them but for my work I haven't as yet seen any benefit from either. Perhaps it is just that the new MM isn't as responsive as the old group was. You could talk to them and get answers. Maybe not the answer you wanted to hear but you knew they were there.

One of the regulars on the forum posted that he doubted MM reads these forums and I agree with him. They probably don't but there is a chance.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:12 pm

Why not tell us something new.
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Post by Michel R E » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:06 pm

it's been about a week since I last posted about my trials, tribulations, and triumphs using Dorico.

Well, in that time I was able to enter my entire violon concerto, parts got made for me on the fly, now I only need to add cues and adjust some page turns in the parts.

I've gotten quickly proficient at using it.

Really, MakeMusic SHOULD learn something from Dorico.

Dorico's developers have acknowledged some bugs or issues I've pointed out, and intend on repairing them (or they are already in the process of being repaired, for example, my house style for bracketing and labeling 1st and 2nd violins cannot be achieved in Dorico for now, but apparently this will be implemented in December with the next update).

Dorico does beautiful flatted slurs, dashed or dotted ties, VERY easy harp pedals (both diagrams and just plain note names... and it points out notes that have altered since the last notated pedal change by highlighting those notes in red, indicating where new pedal changes should be marked).

There are STILL issues, obviously. I find Finale easier to use for harp glissandi, for example.

And Finale allows you to ridiculously easily make cut-out scores, hide staves, etc...
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Post by Michel R E » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:34 pm

and of course, on Facebook MakeMusic and its advertising team are banging the drum for their "new" file-sharing feature.
this reeks of TikTok and social media pandering.
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Post by motet » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:50 pm

For most people, composing/engraving a piece is a solo effort, so it smacks of some CEO trying to *** in on "social media" without really understanding that doesn't make a lot of sense.

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Post by Michel R E » Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:00 pm

motet wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:50 pm
For most people, composing/engraving a piece is a solo effort, so it smacks of some CEO trying to *** in on "social media" without really understanding that doesn't make a lot of sense.
exactly! it makes absolutely no sense.
it sounds like a last ditch effort to revive the "Finale Showcase" that flopped so definitively last time.
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Post by PeterF » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:55 am

Hi Michel

We certainly don't need the Finale Showcase again! lol Put your stuff on YT. People love videos. Don't these guys get it? I have the latest Finale and I'm scared to click on the "Share" button under the FIle menu. haha

Peter
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:21 pm

...its advertising team are banging the drum for their "new" file-sharing feature.
The Smart Music file sharing feature has its place. It was a huge benefit when we were going through the "zoom at home" music teaching experience the last school year. It was a big help when we had no other real choice but in normal times it goes unused. One problem it has is parents and the kids don't like it.

We had tried it several years ago for 5th, 6th and 7th grade music homework. It just was not embraced or accepted. It is a feature that should be there it just isn't a game changer feature. Some educators will still use it.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:03 pm

Have any of you tried the "Share" feature? I tried it with my piece 2020 Heroes. It's there now. But it sure screws up your hard worked for layout and music spacing.

One of the guys on the latest Finale FB thingy said Smartmusic was better because he used to have to send out corrections via email then the recipient would have two copies. So, they can and did become confused which one to use. I don't see SM making that any different. When a musician d/l the original and then d/l the correction he/she would still have two copies!

But I guess the whole point is to play it off your computer monitor screen. That's the way the kids did it for homework.
Last edited by ebiggs1 on Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BuonTempi » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:17 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:09 pm
I doubt if MM reads this board.
Just to show how dead this horse is, here's a thread on the old MakeMusic forum in 2007, over 14 years ago, bemoaning:
  • the lack of useful features in the latest version
  • the lack of bug fixes and the newly introduced bugs
  • inability to keep up with the competition
  • Is anyone at MM reading this board?
  • the bleak future for MM
https://forum.makemusic.com/default.asp ... 1&m=179394

It probably wasn't the first, and this one won't be the last. :lol:

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Post by motet » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:01 pm

Note that most of the people who posted there are long gone.

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Post by RimasG » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:05 pm

motet wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:01 pm
Note that most of the people who posted there are long gone.

Not necessarily. I follow the discussion.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:17 pm

Two reasons! The same two reasons that were in force then; they are still in force now. One, MM either doesn't have the money to do so or, two, they don't have the talent/knowledge to do so.

The difference the old MM would talk to you. They answered the phone.
Probably what drove MM to do the Facebook live streaming thing. One way to show the public we are still here and we are still working on Finale. This is what we've done.
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Post by BuonTempi » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:04 pm

motet wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:01 pm
Note that most of the people who posted there are long gone.
Gone? You mean they've ... passed over to the other side?

Sibelius or Dorico? :lol:

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Post by miker » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:28 pm

Come over to the Dark Side, Luke. We have cookies.
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Post by Michel R E » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:45 pm

Looking back now on the work I've just transcribed from Finale to Dorico (manually, without XML import),
there are many many great things about Dorico.

Great features that remove some of the tedium of note entry and collision avoidance. Instant parts is... well, at first I liked it, now that the score has gotten quite a bit more complicated, well, meh, the results DO require a lot of fine tuning. Finale's ability to quickly move measures from one system to the next or previous is much better than Dorico's system, at least from what I've experienced so far.
(However, Dorico's method allows you to move beats, part measures, etc... to the next or previous system, whereas Finale requires quite a bit of fidgeting with work-arounds to do this)

The final look? I prefer Finale's output. Particularly being able to hide part of a staff, for a cutaway score. D's method for hiding staves is considerably more convoluted, and does not allow for cutaway scores.

Ossia measures and divisi staves in Dorico are a charm, mind you. But those (particularly the former) REALLY screw up parts layout.
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Post by RimasG » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:55 pm

ebiggs1 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:17 pm
Two reasons! The same two reasons that were in force then; they are still in force now. One, MM either doesn't have the money to do so or, two, they don't have the talent/knowledge to do so.
MM Finale has come a long and productive way and has been a leader in notation standards for a long time. If we look at it objectively, today almost anything can be done graphically with Finale. Sometimes you have to wonder how to do it realistically with the tools you have, but for a skilled person anything is possible. Finale even promoted the possibility of writing notes in a closed staff circle. However, this can only be done after a painstakingly long and tedious precious and very costly work. It is hard to believe that anyone would actually do it. It would be easier to do it with other graphical apps, because playback would be impossible anyway. Instead of such advertising, it would be better to offer automation of such notation. But never layout! Here everything is fine. All Finale's editing tools for graphic notation elements should be more user-friendly and intuitive (everything in Fin 27 is left over from Fin 2002). When you can't actually do it right away, but you have to almost graduate from university for one element, it forces you to give up a lot of individual graphical ideas. In a word, Finale lacks a more convenient automation of many elementary functions. Sound mashine is still very much lacking in terms of better conditionals. Garritan and the Aria player are not the optimal solution, as they are time-consuming and also force you to be a sound engineer. The MIDI sounfontes are of good quality, but the whole soundmachine, even with MIDI and lots of RAM, is not capable of playing a tutti from at least a 24 staff symphonic score! This is scandalous in the 21st century! For everything else, I might not have very big complaints. It should also be understood that Finale is not a professional sequencer. So why do we have to buy extra soft to achieve a basic result? MM Finale is digging a hole for itself because of these little things. It is not a dead horse, but it is hard to believe that MM will be able to compete with the resources and marketing possibilities of Steiberg or AVID. The only hope is that Finale is bought by a serious, competent and financially capable player in this market. It is hard to believe, because there is not much need for professional notation software. So, it's a shame about the "horse", but let's ride it before it gets back on its feet and goes bankrupt :)
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:31 pm

...why do we have to buy extra soft to achieve a basic result?
Finale is a mature program. It does do anything you might want if you can only figure out how. None of the others I have tried can say that. Finale being a mature software has one basic way to go. That is features like Perfect Layout that automates part of the flow routine. All the plug-ins are there simply to do what Finale can already do just much easier and perhaps hopefully quicker. Addition of a nice text editor would be nice. So there are several add ons and tweaks that could be done.

Plug-ins and Perfect Layout make way more sense to me than "Sharing". BTW, the Sharing in Smart Music screws up my score so badly I don't want people to see it.
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Post by Michel R E » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:02 am

every time there's a new version of Finale released, I get this visual of someone saying "we had the whole house remodeled". And you look, and all they did was replace the storm cellar doors. They didn't bother fixing the gaping hole in the living room window, or the leaking roof, or actually add stairs to the front porch.

I mean, I love Finale, and I'd MUCH rather not switch to another product (there's none that quite makes the cut right now anyway). But more of this "major announcement, minor additions" crap going on is going to give the competition time to fix ITS issues. And trust me, when that happens, Finale WILL go circling down the drain as composers and engravers realize that they can do everything they could do with Finale, only faster, more easily, and efficiently with the competition.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
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XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
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