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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:47 pm

And to add to the mystery:

I decided to go back and take a look, and suddenly it's all there.
My PDF printer gives me the option of "Adobe PDF", and the Page Setup has all of my pre-programmed page sizes.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:52 pm

Are you using Windows 10?

When you look at the list of printers from the Windows control panel, is there an Adobe Acrobat virtual printer listed? When I pull down the choice of printers in Dorico it duplicates that list; I suspect Dorico just makes a Windows system call to present the choices.

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:57 pm

That's cool but my scale is a bit below yours it seems. I generally only sell a dozen copies or so. I try to keep printing costs as low as possible. The print shop I use would do all that yours does but not for free. It is not a music publisher.

I don't buy steak and lobster form this just an occasional Happy Meal. :D

The work I do for Bones Midwest and the KC Bone Connection and USD 231 is generally pro bono! So, printing costs is a priority.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:09 am

Michel R E wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:10 pm
I'm using Windows 8.1, but Dorico does not "officially" support anything other than Windows 10.
This may be the reason for your printing problem, and perhaps for the Home/End (next-page/previous-page) keys, too.

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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:39 am

it appears that most of the problems resolve once I quit Dorico, reboot, then restart it.

today I had another issue with the sound, and quitting, then restarting, fixed it.

the printing issue was resolved the same way. it didn't work last night. Then when I restarted my computer today, ta-dah! it worked.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:47 pm

I'd have liked to eventually switch to Dorico. There really are some nice features, for example being able to make endlessly bar-less music. I just did a cadenza for a concerto that goes on for three systems. The final look is definitely much more attractive and considerably less work than trying to achieve the same result with Finale.

However, Dorico was designed by people who seem to believe that "the software is always right" and doesn't quite leave enough freedom in the hands of the engraver.

You can't hide time signatures in quite as detailed a manner as you can with Finale. For example, in Finale you can hide the courtesy time signature or key signature at the end of a system without affecting the time or key signature at the beginning of the next system. This is, for now, and for the foreseeable future if I go by the devs' comments, not possible in Dorico. Either the entire thing goes - both end of system and beginning of new system - or none of it does.

Dorico places hairpins where it believes they must go. And tweaking them is considerably more tedious than it is in Finale.

As I've said, Dorico has some absolutely awesome features, and if they fix details like the above, it will be damned near perfect. Though it will still suffer from being designed by the people who designed it (the eternal "we know best" attitude).
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

Hector Pascal
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Post by Hector Pascal » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:58 pm

For decades I composed with pencil and paper, though in recent decades I'm composing straight into Finale (using midi keyboard, but not hyperscribe).

Q. From a composing perspective, would you say that Dorico and Finale are about the same regarding the ease in which to compose directly into the program? I am yet to have time to test Dorico, but am interested in that perspective.

HP.

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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:20 am

I find Dorico FAR more tedious to compose in. I simply can't imagine doing it.
I think that even if I eventually move to engraving final scores in Dorico I'll never actually give up on Finale for composing.
I also work with a MIDI keyboard, and find that most of Finale's shortcuts are easily accessible in one hand, while Dorico has me constantly switching hands on and off the MIDI keyboard to go hit things that are too large of a stretch for one hand. Also, there's too much reliance on the mouse in Dorico and opening special properties panels for things that should be simple.

That said, I REALLY am enjoying using Dorico so far. Yes it's hard to learn, yes some of its features are annoyingly complex to get working correctly. But still, the end result by default is quite nice.

In very few days I was able to enter the full score and parts of the 1st movement of my violin concerto. No cleaning up to do, or very little of it. You enter a hairpin and it makes space for you automatically. Dynamics? same thing. You group the dynamics on a line to have them aligned? Dorico automatically adjusts the space for that.

If Finale could do that, on the fly, I'd never consider changing software.

Ooooooh, but I can share music with collaborators with Finale now. :roll:

They have some serious work to do if they don't want to lose the serious musicians who have been using the software for 30 years. It's all very nice and good that they are making Finale friendlier for youngsters and teaching, but if they ignore the working professionals in favour of the beginners and casuals, then they will lose a serious part of their on-going business.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

Hector Pascal
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Post by Hector Pascal » Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:25 am

Thanks, Michel. Your ability to leverage both programs' strengths is commendable!
Cheers and thanks,
HP.

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:24 am

I am far and away no expert on Dorico or Sibelius but I have a friend that is a full blown expert in Sibelius. I showed him Finale and Perfect Layout. He was extremely impressed. Sibelius has some almost similar thing that tries to do what PL does but it not nearly as good.
PL does not care where Finale puts things like dynamics or hairpins, etc. Just compose your thoughts and ideas and let Finale do its thing. After you are through run PL. That's it. so simple and the result is amazing.
Now I suppose Sibelius can and perhaps they will improve their magnetic layout thingy or whatever they call it but right now it is not a perfect layout.
MM has the ability to include it today. They sorely need it, too.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:41 am

Perfect Layout is totally customizable. Sibelius can't come close to this and I doubt Dorico can either.
pl adjustments.jpg
There are literally dozens of individual adjustments to virtually everything Finale does. You can even have several different preset settings for different scores or simply use the defaults.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:06 pm

I haven't been able to get PL to give me a "perfect score" yet.
Unfortunately, for such a powerful tool, there's a real paucity of documentation.

By the way, from what I can tell, Dorico does everything that PL does, except it does it instantly, on the fly. No need to run the plugin and wait for it to do its thing (it takes up to 10 minutes on my system for PL to treat an orchestral score and parts... and then I have to undo it all because the spacing is too loose, or too tight or some other reason.) Every placement setting in Dorico is adjustable, and it can be different depending on files, movements, layouts, any number of situations. (and again, I'm most definitely not saying that Dorico is perfect, it most definitely has its issues that need correcting... except at the rate THEY correct issues, compared to Finale's "correcting" of bugs and problems, at least I know in Dorico there's a chance something I don't like will be repaired next year, rather than still be griping about it in 10+ years)

Finale should have a function like PL, except it shouldn't be based on JWLua. it should be native to the very programming of Finale.
And from what I can tell so far, PL has had issues with cross-staff notes and beams. Every time I've tried it on a score with a harp part, or a piano part, it has screwed up the spacing of staves.

This isn't to dump on PL, it's a great plugin. it does great things under specific circumstances, and a LOT of hard work went into creating it. But we have to be honest: it is most definitely not the be all and end all of Finale woes.

As I said, lack of documentation is a serious issue. I have no idea what 90% of its buttons and check-boxes do. It's also incredibly annoying that you have to start running the plugin and let it do its thing, before getting a dialogue box that tells you to stop the plugin and go make this or that change since PL can't do it.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:58 pm

Michel like I said I know very little about Dorico. I do have a super user for questions about Sibelius. And, I will concede Perfect Layout is actually "almost" Perfect Layout. But just in the time I have had the plug-in, there has been several, many, upgrades which so far have been free and seamless to do. MM can't say that.

The only way to achieve what PL does is with a plug-in. As of now, as far as I know, MM has rejected the idea of incorporating PL or any such feature in Finale.

I have a difficult time understanding how Dorico could put things where they belong before the score is complete. The only way this can happen is to run something on a completed score. JW Lua is an issue and as long as it remains 32-bit it will continue to be. But here again there seems to be no interest in upgrading JW Lua either.

The first few times I used PL, I was also overwhelmed, too, but just the basic default settings provided me with outstanding results. Now that I have used it for a while, (I even went back and run it on some of my old, very old, scores) it isn't as hard to change as at first appearance. Here again I am doing, mostly, three to five minute concert band scores and not extremely complex work as you.
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dankreider
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Post by dankreider » Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:02 pm

Not to turn this into a Dorico thread, but to answer your question: Dorico makes many of these calculations in real-time as you enter notes and other items in the score. The benefit is obvious, but the drawback is that it does require a little bit more powerful of a computer for large scores. And even then, you might sometimes run in the situation where you experience a bit of a lag. Overall though, it’s incredibly faster.
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Post by Ian Stewart » Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:06 pm

Good points Michel. If I was working to a tight deadline I would probably use Dorico, as everything looks really good straight off the bat. For my new piano work, I am going through it meticuously, making sure the engraving is as good as I can make it and I am really impressed with the detailed adjustments you can make in Finale. When I have finished I may well do the same in Dorico, in order to get a detailed comparision.
One thing I find convoluted in Dorico is adding special characters from the November 2 font. I'm sure I will get used to it eventually but Finale is easier in this respect.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:17 pm

... from what I can tell so far, PL has had issues with cross-staff notes and beams. Every time I've tried it on a score with a harp part, or a piano part, it has screwed up the spacing of staves.
See this is something I don't do so I have no idea how Perfect Layout handles it. I know one thing for sure if you ask Jan Anglemuller you will get an answer.
... we have to be honest: it is most definitely not the be all and end all of Finale woes.
It is certainly a good start in the right direction. But it seems like MM is OK with third party plug-in developers handling and fixing or making things easier to do in Finale in favor of correcting or doing it themselves. Problem is, it seems most of these plug-in creators are all but gone from the scene. :(

It's a good idea to run PL on a separately saved document. Run it. Check the results. If good and OK save it, if not simply run PL again. The beauty is when you are composing you don't have to care where Finale is putting things. Just leave them alone. Then run PL when you are through. Perhaps it will not get you 100% but it is so darn close. And, afterwards if you still want to adjust something you are free to do that. I know you have to do lots of final adjustments in Sibelius and I bet you do in Dorico too. So, there you are!
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:40 pm

... I am really impressed with the detailed adjustments you can make in Finale.
It is those same "detailed adjustments" available in Finale that makes Perfect Layout so useful. I am too old to switch so I am a Finale guy till the end. Besides, IMHO, Finale with Perfect Layout is not the best music notation software available today but it is the best. And, best by far! From my Sibelius friends advanced ability and from what I have read about Dorico, I am convinced Finale is the way to go.

Addendum, I also need JW Change and JW Polyphony and Patterson beam plug-ins to be complete.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:53 pm

To give SOME praise to Finale, I very much prefer playback from Finale. I dislike having to go into a DAW-style editer and jiggle with boxes and draw lines and stuff. I like to see the notes on paper. With Finale I can simply, if the need arises, add text expressions easily defined to alter playback the way I want, and then simply hide them with a single keystroke.

Again, other than a few issues that apparently will get corrected soon, this is my biggest gripe about Dorico: too many keypresses for each action. Not enough single-key shortcuts. And not enough freedom to redefine functions to new shortcuts.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
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XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:26 pm

I very much prefer playback from Finale.
Me too! Right there with you except again only with Note Performer 3 add-on.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:46 pm

Although I wouldn't call NotePerformer3 an "add-on... it's a sound library, like East West, or Garritan.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:04 pm

Expressions, articulations, and smart shapes in Finale have their positions defined with respect to notes, beats, and baselines, both with their category definitions and individually. The good thing about this is if the music is reformatted, or you want to move a baseline for a system, those things move with the notes or beats and adjust accordingly and typically don't need hand adjustment. I have put effort into setting up this positioning so that it works without further adjustment to the extent that's possible. For example, I have a separate set of dynamics for use underneath articulations. With this, I have far fewer collisions and hand corrections that I would if I just applied things willy-nilly using the defaults. Most of the manual tweaking of parts has to do with vertical spacing of systems and creating good page turns (and that takes considerable effort, I will admit).

Perfect Layout seems like a great thing, but I'm wary of it making "manual" corrections to everything based on its own algorithms. If one then needs to change the piece, it sounds like you need to run PL again, and as such one is reliant on a third-party product not officially sanctioned by Finale. I also have in mind using MusicXML as a lifeboat if and when MakeMusic goes out of business. Does MusicXML respect these relative positionings to the extent that the target product (Dorico, e.g.) can adapt them. Or is everything "manual"?

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:10 pm

I have put effort into setting up this positioning so that it works without further adjustment to the extent that's possible.
And, you can put the same "effort" in the custom settings in Perfect Layout.
I have far fewer collisions and hand corrections...
So far with PL, I have had no, none, nada collisions. That is on area where PL shines.
I'm wary of it making "manual" corrections to everything based on its own algorithms
It will only make the corrections you specify unless you simply use the very good defaults.
...it sounds like you need to run PL again, ...
Perhaps, perhaps not. It would depend on how much you changed things. I have done minor changes and not needed to run it twice. I did a revision on an older score where I added a flute 2 and a tuba 2. I simply added the two new staves and let PL fix them. I am really not the person to ask. All I know is how well it is working for me. You can ask Jan Anglemuller. I know I did as I was a huge skeptic before I bought PL. Now, I wouldn't want to be without it.
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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:16 pm

ebiggs1 wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:10 pm
I'm wary of it making "manual" corrections to everything based on its own algorithms
It will only make the corrections you specify unless you simply use the very good defaults.
Well, no, you misunderstand. If it moves anything, even using a PL default, that's a change from where Finale placed it. For example,
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:00 pm

...If it moves anything, even using a PL default, that's a change from where Finale placed it. For example,...
I probably do misunderstand, not uncommon, but PL only moves what you tell it to unless you leave it to its own standard default settings. For example, I don't like how its default setting 'move' my measure numbers, so I tell it to leave them alone.

In my case, I have found that you need to leave plenty of space on the page. When I do it works great, in fact if you do crowd too much music on a page, PL will tell you that and stop.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:15 am

for those still interested in how Dorico differs from Finale...

Today I worked on the cadenza in the 2nd movement of my violin concerto. It's a lengthy and meaty solo section.
And it has a lot of held notes on one string with figurations in 16th notes on another string.

With Finale, making the 16th noteheads juxtapose over the white noteheads of the half notes is... well, it's work, and time consuming.

Dorico, to my great surprise, automates this and it works like a charm. Hours of work were whittled down to a bare few seconds.

Finale really has to keep a close eye on the competition and consider whether they want to KEEP their composer/engraver clientele or would rather turn Finale into the "TikTok" of music engraving programs. With the amount of "sharing" and "easy to show on our showcase" type "new features" it feels like MakeMusic is no longer aiming any part of its flagship program at its long-term clientele, the composers and engravers who have used it for 10+ years (since version 3.0 in my case).

Again, a great "feature" of Dorico is that its staff are active and respond very quickly to questions and comments, and DO consider incorporating customer suggestions.
For example, I now know that the creators of Dorico are incorporating the ability to make 1st and 2nd violins within a brace and have the name be between the two staves. (this is a house style to which I adhere)
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

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