Graphics programmes

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Ian Stewart
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Post by Ian Stewart » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:15 pm

It may seem a naive question but I have read that some engravers import Finale scores or parts into a graphics programme such as Illustrator or Inkscape. I have imported graphics from other programmes into Finale or Dorico but not the other way round. Why do engravers do this and what format is it imported in, I assume PDF or TIFF?
After using Finale since the late 1990s, and before that years hand copying, I'm slightly embarrassed asking this question; I thought I knew most of the techniques used.
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miker
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Post by miker » Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:56 am

The reasons I've seen put forth here are generally to have color control of notes, whether it be for note identification, or which string to play these notes on, and the like.

Nobody has ever come back to tell us if they tried; just that they thought Finale should add this feature.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:02 am

Ian Stewart wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:15 pm
… and what format is it imported in, I assume PDF or TIFF? …
Usually it is PDF format since PDF is vector graphic (not all PDFs are vector graphics, but PDFs exported from Finale are vector graphics).

TIFF - on the other hand - is bitmap graphic.
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Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:12 pm

The composers I know of using a graphics program are those who write fairly modernistic music, with a higher or lesser degree of graphic elements in the notation. The more 'graphic' the notation, the greater the need of a graphics program. All the way to purely, or predominantly, graphic scores where a music notation program may not be needed at all.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:24 pm

Talking of importing graphics into Finale, I have never been successful with that. Exporting a pdf file from Finale works just fine, it appears to be vector graphic, but reimporting it into Finale seems to make it bitmapped - and of very poor quality. Maybe Peter can sort this out...
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:39 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:24 pm
… Exporting a pdf file from Finale works just fine, it appears to be vector graphic, but reimporting it into Finale seems to make it bitmapped - and of very poor quality. Maybe Peter can sort this out...
Is the “poor quality” only seen on the computer screen, or is it also in the print?

Also, what happens if you export a PDF file from the Finale document containing the imported graphic?
Is the resulting PDF’s imported graphic of “poor quality”?

I suspect that the computer screen displays a “poor quality” bitmap preview, whereas the print is in (vector graphic) high quality.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:38 pm

Peter, I'll check this out and get back to you. Thanks so far.
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dankreider
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Post by dankreider » Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:21 pm

I periodically export from notation software into Affinity Designer or Acrobat. For the former, I do either PDF or SVG (though I prefer SVG) in order to add and manipulate graphic elements. For the latter, I open the PDF to make text edits that might be easier in Acrobat.

I wish I didn’t have to do it at all. In both cases, it’s because of limitations in the notation software. The sort of things I’m doing aren’t extravagant, so I hope they get added someday.
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Post by Ian Stewart » Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:07 am

dankreider wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:21 pm
I periodically export from notation software into Affinity Designer or Acrobat.
If it's not an intrusive question Dan, could I ask what what sort of graphic elements you modify in a graphics programme? Also what sort of text edits do you do that cannot be done in the notation programme?
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:44 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:39 pm
Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:24 pm
… Exporting a pdf file from Finale works just fine, it appears to be vector graphic, but reimporting it into Finale seems to make it bitmapped - and of very poor quality. Maybe Peter can sort this out...
Is the “poor quality” only seen on the computer screen, or is it also in the print?

Also, what happens if you export a PDF file from the Finale document containing the imported graphic?
Is the resulting PDF’s imported graphic of “poor quality”?

I suspect that the computer screen displays a “poor quality” bitmap preview, whereas the print is in (vector graphic) high quality.
The issue was a bit different from what I remembered, and more puzzling.

This is the screen appearance of the reimported pdf in Finale itself, looks quite ok actually:
Reimported pdf Finale screen appearance.JPG
This is how it looks when the Finale page is printed to pdf (Adobe Acrobat DC 2015), no comment:
Reimported pdf printed to pdf.JPG
Reimported pdf printed to pdf.JPG (15.71 KiB) Viewed 6233 times
And this is the look when the page is exported as pdf with Finale's Graphics Tool, less blurred but certainly not vector graphic:
Reimported pdf - exported as pdf with FGT.JPG
Reimported pdf - exported as pdf with FGT.JPG (17.4 KiB) Viewed 6233 times
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:58 pm

I forgot to mention that when printed to paper directly from Finale, it looks ok too. So, the problem with the reimported pdf seems to occur when the Finale page is converted to a pdf. If I can count, there are three operations involved, and the last one is one too many. ?
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:14 pm

I am not sure if this is what is being discussed, but I frequently place Finale pdf's made with the graphics tool into other Finale documents (as examples in footnotes) and I've never had issues. And the whole page exports into InDesign and prints without issues.
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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:28 pm

No issues for me, either, on Windows. Snippets exported and imported with the Graphics tool.I make PDFs for printing with CutePDF, though, not Finale's export.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:57 pm

Anders Hedelin,

You are using Windows Finale - right?

What are your steps when you export PDF from a Finale document?
There are several ways to create a PDF from a Finale document.

1) You can “print” to a PDF file via third party PDF software, such as e. g. CutePDF.

2) Or you can export as PDF from Finale’s Graphics Tool.

Reports from other Windows Finale users seem to indicate that you should avoid method 2).
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Post by dankreider » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:33 am

Ian Stewart wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:07 am
If it's not an intrusive question Dan, could I ask what what sort of graphic elements you modify in a graphics programme? Also what sort of text edits do you do that cannot be done in the notation programme?
For PDF text edits, it’s mostly staff labels. There’s a small but annoying limitation presently in Dorico regarding staff labels for percussion staves, so I just edit the PDF after the fact.

I can’t think of any specific graphic things at the moment, but they mostly relate to things like aleatoric and cutaway scores.
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Mon Oct 11, 2021 2:16 am

I've read that some engravers add slurs that cannot be accomplished in Finale in a graphics program, and I've considered modifying the length of individual ledger lines in a graphics program, but so far I have always found ways within Finale to handle both.
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:15 am

A wider ledger line could probably be accomplished with an articulation, defined so that a metatool places it just right. You could even have the spacing algorithm take it into account

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Post by John Ruggero » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:45 pm

Its narrowing ledger lines for tight spaces that's the problem in Finale, since one can't do it for individual notes.
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Post by motet » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:16 pm

Ah. I guess you'd have to remove the existing lines first (there is a MM-supplied plug-in for that).

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wessmusic
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Post by wessmusic » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:25 am

John Ruggero wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:45 pm
Its narrowing ledger lines for tight spaces that's the problem in Finale, since one can't do it for individual notes.
Hi John,

there are more than three alternatives.
IMO using white masks for the ledger line(s) is optimal.
Simple white rectangle looks easy, however does not work perfectly. I checked it in Illustrator and unfortunately a thin (almost invisible) space on the left side of the ledger line remains uncovered.

Image

________

My second (and probably satisfying) attempt is using "fake accidentals" with white mask. In both cases I use "Articulation tool".
The accidentals are attached automatically to the top note. Hense, mid and low notes within a chord require manual adjustments.

Image
 
Image

Depending on actual position, there are two naturals — the first one covers only one ledger line (first chord a'') and the alternative one — two lines — g''' and on the third note — f'''.
_____________

These tricks are working fine only with considerably long ledger lines (7 or 8 EVPUs) than normal ones (Finale defaults are 6 EVPUs).

Speaking frankly, I do not apply the afore mentioned changes.
Instead, I prefer using custom fonts with altered note-heads.
They are much more comfortable to work with, however, beforehand they require additional and precise stem connections.

best,
Wess
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:50 am

That's was enlightening, Wess. Thank you very much. I had never considered masking for places where ledger lines touched, since I assumed that it would be too time-consuming since the situation usually occurs in passages with many fast notes. What I was considering was taking a file into Photoshop (or perhaps Affinity Publisher) and erasing the places where the ledger lines touched. But your system works well for the cases where one would inset accidentals. This is a subtlety that I haven't really delved into.

In any case, my ledger line issues are now solved thanks to a proprietary font that a very good friend of mine gave me. And in other less severe cases, I reduce the note size slightly, narrow the distance between accidentals and note heads, and do spacing by hand adjustment. All of these tactics work well.

A lot of unnecessary work caused by the lack of continued development at MakeMusic.
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Post by Ian Stewart » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:29 am

Thanks for your reply Dan. I have now experimented with importing Finale scores into Inkscape as SVG files and adding aleatoric elements. It is so much easier that way (and you don't have to go near Finale's dreaded, miniscule, unexpandable Shape Designer). I can also see that text editing in a graphics programme can sometimes be the best option. The only problem I can foresee is that after rehearsals I sometimes change things, or discover wrong notes; if there is a lot of graphic editing it would have to be redone.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:54 am

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:57 pm

What are your steps when you export PDF from a Finale document?
There are several ways to create a PDF from a Finale document.

1) You can “print” to a PDF file via third party PDF software, such as e. g. CutePDF.

2) Or you can export as PDF from Finale’s Graphics Tool.

Reports from other Windows Finale users seem to indicate that you should avoid method 2).
Thanks for your time, Peter.
In the examples I posted here I had used your method 2) for the first step of creating the pdf snippets/examples. After that I also tried method 1) with Adobe Acrobat and with 'Microsoft Print to PDF ', but couldn't detect any difference in the final result. If no one else has experienced this problem, maybe there might not be much point in continuing the discussion. In the future I think I'll resort to the method used by my publisher at the time: adding the pdf examples in the pdf program instead of in Finale, and so keeping them vector graphics.

Edit: When I have more time I'll try CutePDF, as it has been recommended quite a few times here.
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Post by John Ruggero » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:42 pm

Ian Stewart wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:29 am
The only problem I can foresee is that after rehearsals I sometimes change things, or discover wrong notes; if there is a lot of graphic editing it would have to be redone.
Exactly.
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Post by wessmusic » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:55 am

During last two-three years I completely abandoned imbedding complex EPS graphics in Finale, because the blurred bitmap visualization of vectorized shapes is awful and inconvenient to work with. Instead, I save the scores as PDF using Preview (on Mac) and all external editings happen in Illustrator.

Here are all steps, which I follow:
1. Converting all text to outlines (in Adobe Acrobat Pro).
2. Opening the rendered PDF into Illustrator (Affinity designer, Verctorantor etc).
3. Saving the particular page(s) as AI file(s) and creating second layer for placing the vector graphics.
Image
As drawing tool I prefer using a tablet (iPad Air with pencil, connected via Duet to the computer).
Drawing with a mouse is not a bad alternative, but it's laborious.
Mirroring Illustrator window on the iPad display speeds up seriously the drawing itself (working with Wacom tablet is also nice option, but IMO less comfortable).
By applying layers all additional graphic elements remain separated from the original score (which I always lock on layer 1).
______

When I need to correct the score, the process repeats point 1 and 2.
From already saved AI files I copy only the second layer

Image

and past it directly into newly revised PDF (applying "Command+F" — but not "Command +V").
BTW, there is no need to add second layer to the revised PDF-Score.

The "copy/paste" takes between 10-20 seconds per page, regardless how many graphical elements are to be copied at once, since all of them have been grouped on the second layer.

I've noticed that not all postscript printers can process Illustrator PDFs.
It's advisable (before printing) to flatten the layers of the PDF-Score.
(in Adobe Acrobat Pro go to: View—>Show/Hide—>Navigation Panes—>Layers)

Best,
Wess
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