not specifically Finale, contrabass question

General notation questions, including advanced notation, formatting, etc., go here.

Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

Post Reply
User avatar
Michel R E
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Michel R E » Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:04 pm

are there any "advanced" contrabass players here who ight offer a bit of advice on a sequence of artificial harmonics?
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.


AnneMillington
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:31 am
Finale Version: 27.3.0
Operating System: Windows

Post by AnneMillington » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:43 pm

You might pose your question on the TalkBass forum, in the double bass section. There are many videos on the subject, but if you want to talk with a real person, I would start there.

https://www.talkbass.com/

Andreo Basisto
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:11 pm
Finale Version: 2011
Operating System: Windows

Post by Andreo Basisto » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:29 pm

Greetings Michel

I'll be pleased to help if I can. Artificial harmonics are certainly possible on the double bass, but in the higher register of course.

Andreo

User avatar
Michel R E
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Michel R E » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:32 pm

thank-you Andreo!

if I notate this passage in this way, does it place this (moderately slow) sequence of harmonics properly and in a comfortably playable zone?
Attachments
contrabass_artificial_harmonics.png
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

Andreo Basisto
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:11 pm
Finale Version: 2011
Operating System: Windows

Post by Andreo Basisto » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:08 am

(I’ve replied to Michel’s PM at first, but I now see that his question is also here, so here’s a resume of my reply to him.)

My first thought is that any use of the E (IV) string should be avoided for artificial harmonics. It’s too painful for a start to press the thumb down on the lower note and it’s really hard to produce an acceptable sound. I tried the first harmonic on the A string and then on the D string. Surprisingly, it does work on the D string! I initially thought that the stretch from the thumb on F# to the B with a 3rd finger would be too much, but it is possible. And it gives a much clearer sound. So if you’re considering marking the strings, I would suggest D string for the first three and then G string for the rest of them in your extract.

I suspect, though, that double bass players would play them like that without the strings being marked. I can’t imagine that any one would attempt the first two on the E string!

Andreo

User avatar
David Ward
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:48 pm
Finale Version: F 25.5 & 26.3
Operating System: Mac

Post by David Ward » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:12 am

That's extremely useful to know, Andreo, thank you for posting it here.

I hope I'm not about to be too OT, but I've long been interested in all aspects of harmonics, especially natural ones with their ‘true’ rather than equal temperament pitches.

Harmonics, even natural ones, on heavier strings seem to have potential problems. My writing of very high natural harmonics for that superb cellist Rohan de Saram http://rohandesaram.co.uk/ was intentionally extreme, but the harmonics on the C string had extra problems of their own.

A YouTube video of the whole piece in which the sequence of harmonics occurs three times across its 23 minutes can be seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYSKgwiXeLI&t (followed by an audience Q & A). Even Rohan struggles a bit with the C string harmonics (although perhaps that added to the intensity of their effect).
Attachments
harmonics.jpg
Finale 25.5 & 26.3
Mac 10.13.6 & 10.14.6

Andreo Basisto
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:11 pm
Finale Version: 2011
Operating System: Windows

Post by Andreo Basisto » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:34 am

For double bass harmonics, the book I most consult is Pierre Hellouin Les Harmoniques á la Contrebasse [Leduc]. I see that he suggests the E or the A string for Michel’s first harmonic on the F# but I still maintain it’s very difficult.

I have now given this series some more thought and see that most of these harmonics can be played as natural harmonics.
harmonics (for Michel).mus
(72.98 KiB) Downloaded 46 times
There’s only the harmonic on B flat (bar 25) which isn’t possible and perhaps bar 28 will also need to be taken as an artificial harmonic. But all the others are quite possible and given that this is at a slow tempo with a crotchet rest to find the harmonics, I think it would be more successful in mostly natural harmonics.

Thinking about David’s message, I have to add that the harmonics in bars 24 and 27 produce a note slightly flat. Note, also in bars 23 and 29 my double harmonic method at the fifth which is easy to find!

Andreo

User avatar
Michel R E
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Michel R E » Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:29 pm

Andreo, thank-you so much. That's wonderful information.

The "double harmonic" you've indicated at bars 23 and 29, you would notate them as double harmonics like that?

At measure 24, there is a node at the augmented 4th? I was unaware! my god the contrabass is a miraculous instrument. Why is there so little repertoire for it????
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

Andreo Basisto
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:11 pm
Finale Version: 2011
Operating System: Windows

Post by Andreo Basisto » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:30 pm

Yes, that’s how I notate the double harmonic with the two diamond-headed notes. So in bar 23: the low D means “play on the D string”; thumb plays the lower harmonic (which is the 8ve of the open string, so easy to find) and then the 4th (or 3rd) finger can stretch out to the upper harmonic. I first discovered this when playing in Orff Carmina Burana and later found it helped in Ravel Tombeau de Couperin and most recently in the final chord for Ethel Smyth On the Cliffs of Cornwall.

Andreo

Andreo Basisto
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:11 pm
Finale Version: 2011
Operating System: Windows

Post by Andreo Basisto » Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:32 pm

As for the harmonic at the augmented 4th or minor 7th (for the C in bar 24)… . Well, Hellouin says they are slightly flat so perhaps it’s not a good idea to depend on them. He calls them false harmonics, whatever that means precisely. I’ve just tried them both on my double bass. The one on the G# is actually very easy to produce and, comparing it with my piano, I can’t really hear any flatness! The harmonic at the minor 7th was harder to produce, because there are other harmonics close to it that get in the way.

Andreo

User avatar
Michel R E
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Michel R E » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:21 pm

how about if I wrote it with both the natural harmonics (as an ossia) and the artificial harmonics?
Attachments
contrabass_harmonics.png
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

Andreo Basisto
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:11 pm
Finale Version: 2011
Operating System: Windows

Post by Andreo Basisto » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:49 pm

Yes, that’s a good idea – it gives the player a choice.

Three comments: In the original line of artificial harmonics, bar 24 should be on the G string (and thus G string to the end of the line). In the ossia bars, bar 22 is on the G string – it’s the natural harmonic at the 4th above the open string – the lower G gives the intended string. Bar 25 will have to be taken on the G string as an artificial harmonic.

Andreo

User avatar
Michel R E
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Michel R E » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:04 pm

ah, I might have misunderstood which string to use for the artificial harmonics (at bar 24+). I thought that the hand had to be relatively far down the string to reach intervals that could be stretched with one hand?

in the Samuel Adler book he says that artificial harmonics all need to be at least an octave up from the open string to be playable (because of the large stretch of pressing the note and touching the harmonic node a 4th up.)

I have corrected the string number, now. I'll repost the same example.
I'm hoping that the errors in question have been corrected now.
Attachments
contrabass_harmonics.png
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

Andreo Basisto
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:11 pm
Finale Version: 2011
Operating System: Windows

Post by Andreo Basisto » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:43 pm

Yes, this is fine now.

The normal fingering for an artificial harmonic is thumb-three and that’s what I’d do for the higher harmonics, But for the lower ones, even as low as the B flat on the G string (bar 25), I’d use thumb-four; they’re perfectly possible and less painful for the poor old thumb than taking them on the D string!

Andreo

User avatar
Michel R E
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
Operating System: Windows

Post by Michel R E » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:10 pm

thank-you so much for your time, Andreo.

I have many string players at my disposal for questions (and my own viola), but sadly, no contrabass player. so far I've had to go see whatever bass players in the orchestra seemed least busy just before an orchestra rehearsal to get answers to my questions!
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

Post Reply