Finale Forum

Yes, it has to be a Finale issue. Times and Times New Roman work just fine in every other application I use them in, and this problem is *not* specific to just one file of mine, as someone in the thread suggested: it's in every Finale file I open, new or old.

There was a time, if I remember correctly, when Finale would mix up typefaces and their styles: so you could have "Times New Roman Bold" in a Plain Style and "Times New Roman Italic" in a Plain style.

If you're getting this in old documents, then it should be fixable by re-selecting the typeface and style. If you're getting this in brand new documents, then that's a regression bug.

BuonTempi wrote: ↑

Thu May 19, 2022 7:00 am

There was a time, if I remember correctly, when Finale would mix up typefaces and their styles: so you could have "Times New Roman Bold" in a Plain Style and "Times New Roman Italic" in a Plain style.

If you're getting this in old documents, then it should be fixable by re-selecting the typeface and style. If you're getting this in brand new documents, then that's a regression bug.

Unfortunately, this is not limited to old documents; it happens with new documents, as well.

What is a regression bug?

mark carlson wrote: ↑

Thu May 19, 2022 4:17 pm

What is a regression bug?

One that was fixed but has returned.

BuonTempi wrote: ↑

Thu May 19, 2022 5:57 pm

mark carlson wrote: ↑

Thu May 19, 2022 4:17 pm

What is a regression bug?

One that was fixed but has returned.

Ah! Thanks

I suspect this issue isn't going to be resolved here...

motet wrote: ↑

Thu May 19, 2022 6:12 pm

I suspect this issue isn't going to be resolved here...

Alas, no. Somewhere along the line I read that MakeMusic was working on it, but that was months ago. I suppose upgrading to Finale 27 might be the only way. I was avoiding doing that, but maybe I need to now.

Oh man ... now I'm livid. I recently upgraded to Ventura, and this Times/Times New Roman Italics bug started happening. (Plus a couple of other bugs in Finale 26.)

And so I read this thread and decided to finally upgrade to 27.

...and the issue is still happening. This is really unacceptable.

Mel-o-rama wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:31 am

Oh man ... now I'm livid. I recently upgraded to Ventura, and this Times/Times New Roman Italics bug started happening. (Plus a couple of other bugs in Finale 26.)

And so I read this thread and decided to finally upgrade to 27.

...and the issue is still happening. This is really unacceptable.

It is infuriating that it hasn't been fixed by Finale in all this time. My workaround is to select "Time (missing)", which for some reason is actually Times New Roman. You'd think it would be easy enough to correct that, wouldn't you?

mark carlson wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:06 am

Mel-o-rama wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:31 am

Oh man ... now I'm livid. I recently upgraded to Ventura, and this Times/Times New Roman Italics bug started happening. (Plus a couple of other bugs in Finale 26.)

And so I read this thread and decided to finally upgrade to 27.

...and the issue is still happening. This is really unacceptable.

It is infuriating that it hasn't been fixed by Finale in all this time. My workaround is to select "Time (missing)", which for some reason is actually Times New Roman. You'd think it would be easy enough to correct that, wouldn't you?

Definitely infuriating. Rereading all the research y'all have done. I do see now that if I pick "Times (missing) Italic" it does indeed give me "Times New Roman Plain". And if I pick "Times (missing) Plain" it gives me "Times Plain." I can see the difference because Times has more diagonal serifs on the capital S and other letters. And Times New Roman has the straight up and down serifs.

At least I have a workaround for now -- thanks to you guys. But if I share these files, or Apple/Finale finally fixes the issue, I'm gonna have to fix these files again.

One thing I picked up in my research -- there might be a way to uninstall "Times.ttc" in the System font folder, and then I might be able to reinstall in my "User/Library" font folder, and then it might start working -- but then maybe not because evidently Mac OS Monterey and Ventura supposedly have Times.ttc on some internal do-not-use list, which is undoubtedly what's causing these unintended circumstances. I blame Apple for making these changes on us and not sufficiently communicating to the developers how to navigate around these arbitrary stupid choices.

But thanks again, guys!

This problem occurred to me also after I installed Finale 27 and was solved midway down the following thread:

https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ ... -Finale-27

David Cusick suggested installing the following Times font:
https://www.freebestfonts.com/timr45w-f ... e_vignette

That fixed the problem on my computer.

There's a lot of confused and confusing** information in that ZenDesk thread, and the link (which also includes Facebook tracking data) is dead.

Everyone with this problem should let MM know that it needs fixed.

Times is one of several fonts that for some reason, Apple has declared 'legacy': meaning that you won't see them in the font selection lists in new documents; but if you already have a document that uses it, it should still work. Others include Athelas, Courier Iowan Old Style and Marion.

See under "Document-supported fonts" here:
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT212587

Given that all Finale documents are based on an existing template document, then Times should be available, if it's used in the Default file. But... anyway.

In the meantime, you need another copy of Times in /Library/Fonts or ~/Library/Fonts. (You can't just duplicate the .ttc (TrueType Collection) file; but if you have FontForge, you can open the .ttc file and save each style from it as a separate font.)

I suppose you can download Times from some font download site, but you don't really know whether it's exactly the same version, and there could be issues with metrics and character set. A lot of those site are 'sketchy' at best.

** ..by which I mean 'wrong'.

John Ruggero wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:09 pm

This problem occurred to me also after installed Finale 27 and was solved midway down the following thread:

https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ ... -Finale-27

David Cusick suggested installing the following Times font:
https://www.freebestfonts.com/timr45w-f ... e_vignette

That fixed the problem on my computer.

Awesome ... this worked for me. My problem, as BuonTempi points out, is that I tried to install the exact same ttc file -- and Mac would have none of that. But then I tried installing the ttf file (individual, not collection).

I double-clicked the file to open it in Font Book. It still said: Duplicate font, but I clicked "Install" anyway. And now it exists. Finale is fixed. I like this better than selecting "Times (missing) Italic" -- which is a good temporary solution, but installing the ttf is a permanent solution.

Thanks for all your help, everyone.

Glad that fixed the problem, Mel-o-drama.

But questions remain.

Since Time New Roman is possibly the most-used font and presuming that the problem occurs for every Mac user of Finale 27, why haven't there been more complaints about it? Why doesn't MakeMusic provide better information about it and how to fix it? Why haven't they fixed it after all this time? What is it about Finale 27 (and I guess 26) that is problematic when other new programs like Dorico 5 have no issue whatever with Apple's decisions regrading the Times font?

So many mysteries. Getting to be too many for me.

John Ruggero wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 03, 2023 3:52 pm

Since Time New Roman is possibly the most-used font and presuming that the problem occurs for every Mac user of Finale 27, why haven't there been more complaints about it? Why doesn't MakeMusic provide better information about it and how to fix it? Why haven't they fixed it after all this time? What is it about Finale 27 (and I guess 26) that is problematic when other new programs like Dorico 5 have no issue whatever with Apple's decisions regrading the Times font?

Times New Roman and Times are two different fonts. TNR is still available in the usual way.
A default, 'factory' Finale document shows TNR as the selected font for various notations:
But if you go to "Set Font", Finale seems to show that Times, not TNR, is selected (and missing).
... and then there's the business of all the font styles being "off by one" from Times onward (Italic is selected, but ... it's not.)

In short: somehow, Finale is getting Times and TNR mixed up, with absurd consequences. It's a problem entirely of MM's making, regardless of Apple's decision about the font.