Hiding empty staves

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Brent
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Post by Brent » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:10 pm

Since upgrading to Finale 27 I'm having difficulty hiding empty staves in keyboard parts. In the past if 'hide empty staves' was selected the left hand staves that had no notes would be hidden and the right hand parts collapsed accordingly. Now I can only hide those measures with the staff tool, but it does not collapse staves, so there's no savings in space on the page. I've tried using the 'force hide staff' under Behaviors, but then all of the left hand part of the piano score vanishes. This was never an issue before, so I'm very frustrated that I can't get the score to behave the way it used to.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:19 pm

If I'm understanding you correctly, go to the Staff Tool, select the Group handle for the keyboard part, then in the Staff menu select Groups > Edit and in Group Attributes instead of ‘Only Hide if All Staves Empty’ select ‘Hide Normally’.

Does that do what you want?
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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:19 pm

Staff tool menu, Group and Bracket, Edit, do this:

EDIT: David beat me to it while I was writing this.
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Image1.png

Brent
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Post by Brent » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:23 pm

Yup. That's what I've done......repeatedly. It used to be so simple...

Thanks for taking the time to both of you.

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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:32 pm

Is it less simple now? As far as I know, that hasn't changed in a very long time. It's uncommon to use only one staff for a piano, which is why the default is the way it is.

Brent
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Post by Brent » Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:33 pm

When writing a big band score (especially period specific stuff) the full piano score is often broken up by single stave sections with just the chord changes for comping. Until now I have never had an issue with doing that simply. I know you can hide sections using staff style tool, but it doesn't collapse the staves, so there's no savings in space when formatting the page.

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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:37 pm

I still have Finale 2005 installed and its default for piano is Group optimization: Only remove if all staves emtpy, so you must have either changed it and forgotten or created the two staves manually and made them into a group.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:50 am

Brent wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:33 pm
I know you can hide sections using staff style tool, but it doesn't collapse the staves, so there's no savings in space when formatting the page.
Staff/Hide empty staves will hide the staff and move the other staves up, given that you've fixed that group setting for your piano, so I'm not sure where you're going afoul. If you can't get it to work, maybe you can post a sample of what you're doing here and we can sort it out.

Brent
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Post by Brent » Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:56 pm

Thanks again for helping me out. Without the guidance of folks like you I'd be wasting time chasing my tail instead of writing. Writing is a lot more fun...

I didn't understand your reference to Group Optimization, so I went and search it in the Finale help files, but there was no reference there. For this particular ensemble I've been working from the same template I created years ago, and I haven't hit his snag yet.

I've attached an excerpt from the piano part and from the score. When I opened the extracted piano part I was able to use the staff styles tool to hide the blank bass clef part AND collapse it. In the score, from which I work and print to pdf, Finale won't let me do that, but at least I know that I can 'peel' off the keys part and get it to behave properly. As a result I must've changed something, somewhere in settings to cause this, but I'm at a loss right now...

Thank you, so much, for your time. And, happy new year!

...Brent
Finale Sample Dec 2021 - Keys.musx
(146.81 KiB) Downloaded 48 times
Finale Sample Dec 2021.musx
(203.08 KiB) Downloaded 46 times

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:38 pm

"Group optimization" was the old nomenclature. I was just pointing out that nothing has changed along those lines.
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I think you're laboring under a misapprehension: you can only hide and collapse a staff if it's empty throughout the system. Otherwise, what would happen to the non-empty measures on the left here? The music below that has no room to move up without colliding with it.
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You can extend your cutaway measures to the end of the system, of course. If the empty staff continues for another complete system, you can then collapse that.
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In your part, you don't need a staff style. Select the empty staves you want to collapse from the Staff tool and pick "Hide Empty Staves" from the Staff menu.
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You should be able to do both without extracting the part, but rather with a linked part. "Hide empty staves" only applies to the score or part you use it in. You can apply the cutaway staff style only to the score or part, if you want to use that. Personally, I wouldn't do that in the score--I'd just leave the empty measures and only hide things where they're empty for the entire system. There's nothing to be gained by "cutaway", since it doesn't save space.

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michelp
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Post by michelp » Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:00 pm

Optimization is a term used in old versions of Finale, it is now replaced by "Hide empty Staves".
A couple of remarks :
• In the score file, you have generated parts. All parts are included in the score file (Document menu -> Edit Parts). No need to extract parts anymore, you can edit them there, print them.
• Staff menu -> Hide Empty Staves works for selected regions, but for a whole system in page view in which a staff is completely empty. Otherwise, to hide partial regions of a system, the Staff Style solution is recommended.
Notice that in the Keys part, Hide Empty Staves functions very well for whole systems.
• The score needs some work. First use Respace Staves (Staff menu) and go to Document -> Page Format -> Score to enter correct values (orientation, page size, reduction, margins, etc...). Then, to apply the new values, go to the Page Layout Tool and Redefine pages -> All pages.
P.S. I see that motet answered in the same direction.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:41 pm

Take a look at the attached file. Is this what you want?

I'd suggest you lay out the parts a la Clinton Roemer (The Art of Music Copying). That is, rehearsal numbers at the start of the system, systems arranged mostly in 4 bar phrases. Your piano player will thank you.

I took the liberty of arranging the single staff section with 6 bars per system to save space. Roemer suggests these should be 4 bars per line to match the phrasing, but the phrasing is pretty predictable at 6 bars.

You can read or download The Art of Music Copying here:
https://pdfslide.net/documents/the-art- ... oemer.html
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Finale Sample Dec 2021 - Keys Rev.musx
(144.5 KiB) Downloaded 47 times
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
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Brent
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Post by Brent » Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:00 pm

Thanks for all of your replies. That chunk of music was just a small excerpt so as to make the file small enough to attach. That two bar measure with the bass clef hidden was from page one of the original score, and were the last two bars on that page. The bulk of the systems came after on pages two and three.

I know that I don't have to extract parts, but it was the only way to hide and collapse the piano part. Until this file I've never had an issue doing this using Edit>Part>Piano. Even when I used the staff tool and selected the staves that I wanted to hide, when I used the staff style hide>collapse it did nothing, but when I used Force hide>cutaway the entire bass clef became hidden even though I had only highlighted a portion of the score.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:12 pm

I guess I've said my piece, but Finale is working as it should and as it always have. Here is page 2 of your score, and hide staves works.
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1101.png
Last edited by motet on Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:23 pm

Not to belabor the discussion, but in jazz publishing it's customary to always keep both piano staves in a full score. The reason being that the conductor then will always be able to spot the rhythm section staves in their normal configuration.
N. Grossingink
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Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link


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Brent
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Post by Brent » Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:40 pm

I'm not disputing the excellence of Finale. I've been using it since about 1993, and wouldn't be without it. Motet in that last post you included a tiny excerpt of the score that showed the collapsed piano part in the score. On my PC I can hide staves in the score. It's when I try do that in the piano part is where it's refusing to play ball. I have done all the usual things to make this edit happen and, so far, on this file it's not giving me the intended result.

N Grossingink - This isn't a typical big band score, and the section of the piano part doesn't need to have empty staves taking up space. For banjo and piano I don't need to spell out the parts for what is, essentially, a 'boom-chuck' part. Also, I have not edited the actually full score at all as my clients rarely want one. Thanks for your input and suggestions, though. I appreciate everyone's time to make a reply on this thread.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:24 pm

Brent wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:40 pm
Motet in that last post you included a tiny excerpt of the score that showed the collapsed piano part in the score. On my PC I can hide staves in the score. It's when I try do that in the piano part is where it's refusing to play ball.
You're likely doing something wrong. Perhaps you're not selecting the staves you want to hide first. Here's how to do it:
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Image3.png
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Image4.png

Brent
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Post by Brent » Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:11 pm

Yup. I'm officially a dumb-a$$. Obviously, I had forgotten That line under the Staff Tool window, and was counting on the checked box in the Staff Attributes window.

Thank you, so much, yet again for your time, knowledge and patience. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all three.

Have a safe and healthy 2022.

...Brent

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