Split measure tool not working

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phrederica
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Post by phrederica » Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:21 pm

I am trying to notate a few hundred measures in a complex meter: 4+3. I would like to show a dotted line in the sort of middle of each measure.

The split measure tool worked great, but it only works on one measure. If I select multiple measures and start the tool, it says it only works on one measure.

My one measure looks fine - dashed line in the middle, only the first part has a measure number, so I'm not doubling the number of measures. But if I copy and paste that measure, bad news! Each copied split measure of 7 beats is coming up with two measure numbers. The second half of the measure is numbered separately. Darn. I've tried all the methods I know of copying and pasting, with the same result.

Result: in page view, there are split measures. One half of the measure is on one system, the other is on the next line.

I also tried it without the split measure tool. I made a measure of 4/4 with a dashed barline (labeled 7/4), then a measure of 3/4, not included in the numbering system. This worked for one measure, but when I copied and pasted it, the 3/4 measure had a measure number.

Any solutions? I saw that this question was asked before, most recently in 2018, and the best solutions were what I've done or use the Smart Shape tool to draw a dotted line. I'm surprised that this doesn't work better; doesn't seem that uncommon.

Finale 27.1.0.271

Thanks!


mmike
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Post by mmike » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:52 pm

This may not be much better, but instead of drawing a dotted barline with the smart shape tool you can select the second part of your split measure and in measure attributes deselect "include in measure numbering." This way your original measure divsion line will stay and the measure number in the next measure will be what you want. You could create a key short cut to get quicker to the attributes screen, but still, you'd have to do it for every measure ...
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:26 pm

Select all measures in the Measure tool and uncheck that attribute for every other measure as follows:
.
1120.png
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1121.png
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Last edited by motet on Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mmike
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Post by mmike » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:35 pm

Better yet - here'a another method which should pretty much do what you want:

don't show any measre numbers
split your first measure
copy that split measure to the rest of the region where you want this (Ctrl-ALt - paste mutltple), with the Edit Filter set only to Measure Settings
if you don't have it, get the JW Pattern, v1.11 (64-bit) http://www.finaletips.nu/index.php/down ... tern-v1-11
select all
run the Plug-in with these settings - Sequences / Numbered Steps / Step Method - Measures in groups of 2 > Apply
now you have the desired measure number sequence as text expressions, which you can change in appearance and positioning
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:42 pm

I'm not sure that's better. Measure 10 would be know in Finale as measure 19, etc., which might be confusing. You can still adjust individual measure numbers if you use the normal measure number region.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:59 pm

phrederica wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:21 pm
In page view, there are split measures. One half of the measure is on one system, the other is on the next line.
Alas, I don't think there's any way to prevent that. You'll just have to correct it manually when it happens.

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Post by mmike » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:09 pm

This won't happen if you de-select "Move second part of split measure to next system" when splitting a measure
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:14 pm

For that one measure. But she's then making dozens of copies. A "never break a system here" measure attribute would be a nice feature.

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Post by mmike » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:22 pm

No it doesn't. If you multiple-copy that one split measure to the following (not split) ones with the settings I indicated, the measures are spread out evenly and are not split/moved to the next system. You might have to update the layout if you don't have it on.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:40 pm

phrederica,

It might be less work if you -

1) keep all measures in 7/4 (= no measure number problems).

2) add the dashed barlines as expressions.
You can create an expression category expecially for the dashed barlines.
When the first measure is done, use the Copy Filter to copy the dashed barlines to all the measures.

* See the two attached files.



(Cheat!) Convince your publisher that mid-measure barlines should not be drawn between the staves.
This is not as crazy as it might sound. Think about it from the conductor's point of view:
Real barlines are drawn between the staves, mid-measure barlines are not.
Personally I certainly wouldn't mind conducting a score with a such, visual distinction between real barlines and mid-measure barlines.
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7-4 Time.jpg
7-4 Time.musx
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:48 pm

Personally I've never had much luck with barlines as expressions, since they crowd the surrounding notes.
1123.png
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Unless it's a one-off, manually adjusting spacing is not workable. I've also tried making them shape articulations with surrounding white space and setting music spacing options to heed articulations, with only limited success. Do you know a better way to go?

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:35 pm

motet,

In my attached example the expression category gives the dashed barlines an Additional Horizontal Offset of -6pt, which - in this Finale document - corresponds to the document’s Spacing Before Music (in Document Options - Notes and Rests).

Take a look at e. g. measure 4.
The spacing before the first note after the barline coresponds to the spacing before the first note after a dashed barline.

You can see the details in the attached Finale document.

However, this category setting of 6pt before the note does not adjust for a note accidental before the note.
Such cases require manual adjustment of the dashed barline.

We do not know much about the music phrederica is notating, such as the number of staves (instruments), or the page size, or the scaling percentage.

As I see it, we are “shooting in the dark”, suggesting / discussing various solutions.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:12 pm

I wonder why the D is closer to the dashed barline than the other barline:
.
1126.png
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.
Unfortunately, there's no way to create space before the false barline that I can think of; in your example it there was enough space by virtue of there being eighth notes, but with something like it doesn't work:
.
1125.png
1125.png (5.83 KiB) Viewed 12644 times
By you may be right that your idea will work with her music.

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:04 pm

mmike wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:35 pm
Better yet - here'a another method which should pretty much do what you want:

don't show any measre numbers
split your first measure
copy that split measure to the rest of the region where you want this (Ctrl-ALt - paste mutltple), with the Edit Filter set only to Measure Settings
The "split measure" is actually two measures, so if there is existing music, it will make a mess (layout has been updated):
1127.png
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1128.png
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mmike
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Post by mmike » Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:27 pm

Nevertheless, it works for me. You have to also remove all system locks.
split.jpg
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:02 pm

I tried removing system locks first. Looks like you maybe copied notes, too. Or maybe your target measures were initially empty and you added music after the copy. If you think about it, copying alternating measures of 4/4 and 3/4 onto 7/4 measures is not going to work out if the 7/4 measures are full.

phrederica
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Post by phrederica » Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:52 pm

Thanks for all the responses! I forgot to turn on notification if a reply is posted, so I didn't know anyone had answered my question. Sorry for the slow reply to all of your replies.

Peter et al, I'm working on an arrangement for 5 parts (celli). Nobody will ever be conducting from a score. I will scale the score down so that two systems fit on a page.

Mike - smart shape tool sounds like as much trouble as split measures across systems, but with more opportunities for errors. If I start moving notes around (and I will), the smart shape will get moved, and that could be a problem for players if I miss it.

Motet - your measure numbering system worked great! As was mentioned, there is the issue that the Finale number doesn't match the labeled measure number, but I'm OK with that.

Mike - I tried your instructions before the JW Pattern: "don't show any measre numbers, split your first measure, copy that split measure to the rest of the region where you want this (Ctrl-ALt - paste mutltple), with the Edit Filter set only to Measure Settings". I still had split measures across systems when I did this. I guess it was just for measure numbers? Not sure since I can't use the plugin. I downloaded the JW Pattern. When I tried to open it with Finale, it said "invalid file type". It downloaded as a .txt file. I've never added a plugin. Maybe I'm missing something.

Mike - you wrote "This won't happen if you de-select "Move second part of split measure to next system" when splitting a measure". True, but the split measure tool only works on one measure. Copying a measure eliminates that feature. (As Motet pointed out.) I tried copying the split measure, then updated layout and it still split the measure.

Peter - adding dashes as expressions. I agree with Motet, they aren't as attractive as they could be. I would need to add them manually, after I'm done with notes. Sounds like a lot of work. I've got almost 300 measures of music. I prefer the dotted lines running through all staves, like regular barlines, but not a big deal since it is chamber music, and nobody will be conducting from the score.

Thanks again for all the responses!

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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:32 pm

As far as measure numbers go, in Preferences/View choose "Display defined measure numbers." The measures that are excluded from measure numbering will be displayed with a # sign (e.g. in scroll view). Ignore those. The others will be what you want.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:49 pm

phrederica wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:52 pm
… Peter - adding dashes as expressions. I agree with Motet, they aren't as attractive as they could be. I would need to add them manually, after I'm done with notes. Sounds like a lot of work. I've got almost 300 measures of music …
Actually not “a lot of work”.

Do one measure, then use the Copy Filter to copy the expressions to all the other measures.
Should only take seconds.
You can even add them before you do the notes.

The real issue here is the spacing:

1) What is the smallest note value in the music, just before a dashed “barline”?
If it is an 8th, then the layout should be fine.
But if it is a 16th, then there may be too little space for the dashed “barline” - requiring manual adjustment.

2) Also, an accidental on the first note after a dashed “barline” may require manual adjustment of the dashed “barline”.
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phrederica
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Post by phrederica » Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:30 pm

Hi Peter,
I did not know about the copy with filter feature - thanks for telling me about it!

I tried putting the expression dashes in the measures. I would need to do a lot of nudging. There are lots of accidentals, and some eighth notes are touching lines. My smallest unit of time is eighth notes. Overall, the spacing just doesn't look as nice, either.

I attached a screenshot of a sample. One using the expression tool, the other, with a split measure.
with expression.jpg
(Whew! only a tiny image size is allowed here!)

For me, it will be easier to find and correct the measures that are split across systems. I only need to look for one thing in one place. With the expression version, I'll need to check each measure. Also, I found that with the expression version, Finale wanted to put in whole 7 beat rests as a default, which I would also need to correct each time.
with expression.jpg
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with split measure.jpg

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:43 pm

Hi phrederica,

Thanks for the images.
They give a clear impression of the layout problems.

phrederica wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:30 pm
… My smallest unit of time is eighth notes …
Which is what I expected from your description.

phrederica wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:30 pm
… (Whew! only a tiny image size is allowed here!) …
Click on the “tiny image”, and you will see it at “normal size”.

phrederica wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:30 pm
… I found that with the expression version, Finale wanted to put in whole 7 beat rests as a default, which I would also need to correct each time …
To make things clearer, consider putting a dotted half rest in the 3/4 measures.

By The Way:
There is an additional problem with the {split measure} solution, a problem which (I think) has not yet been mentioned:
When one 7/4 measure is split into two “real” measures of 4/4 and 3/4, there is indeed a problem with the measure numbering.
But there is also a problem with the multimeasure rests - since each 7/4 measure is counted as two “real” rest measures.

Another solution:
Change all durations to 50 %, and change the time signature to 7/8.
The beaming eliminates the need for dashed barlines:
7_8Time.jpg
(Click on the “tiny image”, and you will see it at “normal size”)
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phrederica
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Post by phrederica » Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:12 pm

Interesting idea, Peter! I'll think about that.

By "tiny image", I meant the size in kB. I was surprised that a picture at about 350kB was rejected as too big.

phrederica
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Post by phrederica » Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:54 pm

Just found a weird bug. I went to Edit Measure Attributes, and changed the measure numbers to every 2 measures, as suggested by Motet. (See above in the thread.)

But the renumbering isn't consistent through the Finale software.

I'm adjusting all the clefs to make cellists happy. When I select a measure, for example measure 6, it changes the clef in measure number 3. I can see that the measure is highlighted, and the box says "measure 6 through 6". But when I click OK, it changes the clef in a different measure, measure 3. So, it is using my measure numbers in the dialog box, but the original measure numbers when it executes the command.

My workaround: I'll adjust the measure numbers when I'm done with everything else.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:50 am

It is a bug. To work around it, go to Preferences/View and temporarily set Measure numbers to "Display actual measure numbers" long enough to make your change.

phrederica
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Post by phrederica » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:58 am

That worked, thanks!

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