Nonstandard notation creation
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Is there a way to change what staff line a note appears on?
I'm working on a score that's already using colored shape notes and I have the scale degrees above them. I've used the score manager dialog to change the score so that it only has three lines, the F, B, and E.
We have a set of bells that have the following notes:
G3 A3 B3 C4 D4 E4 F4 G4 A4 B4 C5 D5 E5 F5 G5
I would like G3 through B3 to appear on the bottom (E) line, C4 through B4 on the middle (B) line, and c5 through G5 to appear on the top (F) line.
Is there a way to assign notes to different staff lines? Can it be done without changing their midi pitch?
I'm working on a score that's already using colored shape notes and I have the scale degrees above them. I've used the score manager dialog to change the score so that it only has three lines, the F, B, and E.
We have a set of bells that have the following notes:
G3 A3 B3 C4 D4 E4 F4 G4 A4 B4 C5 D5 E5 F5 G5
I would like G3 through B3 to appear on the bottom (E) line, C4 through B4 on the middle (B) line, and c5 through G5 to appear on the top (F) line.
Is there a way to assign notes to different staff lines? Can it be done without changing their midi pitch?
- Peter Thomsen
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Welcome to the forum!
Are you an experienced Finale user?
The layout you describe, is possible in Finale, but the solution is not for “Finale beginners”.
By The Way:
It would help if you could attach a picture of the layout - to avoid misunderstandings about the layout.
Are you an experienced Finale user?
The layout you describe, is possible in Finale, but the solution is not for “Finale beginners”.
By The Way:
It would help if you could attach a picture of the layout - to avoid misunderstandings about the layout.
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I don't have an easy way of producing a picture a this point.
If you could describe the procedure, that would be lovely.
If you could describe the procedure, that would be lovely.
- miker
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Can you simply draw a picture?
Is there an example if this type of notation posted anywhere on line?
And, though I really try to avoid this question, why? Is this easier, in some way, for the players? Maybe you have the bells color coded,
But still, a regular staff shows pitches going up or down, rather than 8 colored notes on a single line. Just my opinion, of course.
Is there an example if this type of notation posted anywhere on line?
And, though I really try to avoid this question, why? Is this easier, in some way, for the players? Maybe you have the bells color coded,
But still, a regular staff shows pitches going up or down, rather than 8 colored notes on a single line. Just my opinion, of course.
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- motet
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I think I know what he wants--a three-line staff, with the lowest bells in colored notes on the bottom line, middle range on the middle line, and highest notes on the top line, and correctly playing back.
The colors are intended as a teaching tool to augment the traditional placing of pitches, not as an alternative notation. With a percussion staff you could perhaps put multiple pitches on one line, though I don't know about colored notes. Personally, I think it would be better to use traditional notation, perhaps with colored notes, and teach the players to read the notation--it will serve them well anyway. If there are three players, then use three staves.
The colors are intended as a teaching tool to augment the traditional placing of pitches, not as an alternative notation. With a percussion staff you could perhaps put multiple pitches on one line, though I don't know about colored notes. Personally, I think it would be better to use traditional notation, perhaps with colored notes, and teach the players to read the notation--it will serve them well anyway. If there are three players, then use three staves.
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I would be happy to describe the procedure, but I can not do so before I understand, what the layout should look like.LowellHouse wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:42 pmI don't have an easy way of producing a picture a this point.
If you could describe the procedure, that would be lovely.
Your description is not clear to me:
What does “colored shape notes” mean?LowellHouse wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:22 am… I'm working on a score that's already using colored shape notes and I have the scale degrees above them. I've used the score manager dialog to change the score so that it only has three lines, the F, B, and E.
We have a set of bells that have the following notes:
G3 A3 B3 C4 D4 E4 F4 G4 A4 B4 C5 D5 E5 F5 G5
I would like G3 through B3 to appear on the bottom (E) line, C4 through B4 on the middle (B) line, and c5 through G5 to appear on the top (F) line …
- Does each scale degree have its own color? If yes, then what are the colors???
- Does each scale degree have its own note shape? If yes, then what are the shapes???
- What does it mean that you “have the scale degrees above them”? - Perhaps text above each note???
It sounds like a lot of redundant information if you have the same info three times:
1) a specific color for each scale degree,
2) a specific note shape for each scale degree,
3) above each note a text with the scale degree.
Why did you use the ScoreManager dialog to “change the score so that it only has three lines, the F, B, and E”?
I mean:
- What do you need, exactly?
- What is the problem you are trying to solve?
- Is it important that the three lines are exactly F, B, and E? - and why?
It is possible to create a custom staff with only three lines (any three lines, with any vertical distance).
The better we understand, the better we can help you.
If you “simply draw a picture” as Mike suggests, we can get a much better idea of the layout.
Without a picture we can only guess.
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I'll have to post more detail later, but a general overview is:
We play tunes on 18 Russian bells weekly. There are cords of wire arranged like a keyboard that we push to sound them. Most of our ringers are non-musicians, so, yes, there is a lot of redundant information.
Are current scores are lists of scale-degree numbers: they are space efficient and easy to read at a distance. They don't, however, convey rhythm. Another weakness of numbers if we don't resort to -7 and +1 sorts of notation is knowing which note is meant to be rung. We have 3 Gs (scale degree 5). If we consider C4 to B4 our main octave, in my notation for B3 I color the number as a blue 7 and have an underline under it. For D5 I color it red.
Basically we have three zones: G3 to B3, C4 to B4, and C5 to G5. Thus the three lines on the staff.
They will know what scale degree the note is because, not only is it labeled with the number, but Finale already has a template for shape-note notation where each scale degree has its own shape. It also, with the click of a button, will color the note with a color specific to its scale degree.
Reducing a score to three lines allows us to enlarge it to a size easily read but still fit it on two pages which we can attach to a clipboard hanging to the side wall. Actual notation allows people to know the rhythm.
I've attached a shape note score which is too long and too small to be useful in its current form.
We play tunes on 18 Russian bells weekly. There are cords of wire arranged like a keyboard that we push to sound them. Most of our ringers are non-musicians, so, yes, there is a lot of redundant information.
Are current scores are lists of scale-degree numbers: they are space efficient and easy to read at a distance. They don't, however, convey rhythm. Another weakness of numbers if we don't resort to -7 and +1 sorts of notation is knowing which note is meant to be rung. We have 3 Gs (scale degree 5). If we consider C4 to B4 our main octave, in my notation for B3 I color the number as a blue 7 and have an underline under it. For D5 I color it red.
Basically we have three zones: G3 to B3, C4 to B4, and C5 to G5. Thus the three lines on the staff.
They will know what scale degree the note is because, not only is it labeled with the number, but Finale already has a template for shape-note notation where each scale degree has its own shape. It also, with the click of a button, will color the note with a color specific to its scale degree.
Reducing a score to three lines allows us to enlarge it to a size easily read but still fit it on two pages which we can attach to a clipboard hanging to the side wall. Actual notation allows people to know the rhythm.
I've attached a shape note score which is too long and too small to be useful in its current form.
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- Thank you for being a friend (colors).musx
- Color/shape note score
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Here's an example of the simple scale degree notation.
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Here's what reducing everything to a single line would look like, but you can't tell what octave is in.
- Peter Thomsen
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LowellHouse,
An idea:
1) Use the solution with a {single line} staff - as in your document “Thank you for being a friend (colors) test 1 page”.
2) Add two {single line} staves, to create a score with 3 staves.
In Other Words:
Use 3 {single line} staves instead of one {three line} staff.
You can adjust the vertical distance between the staves as needed - and the vertical spacing between the 3 staves can be different in different systems (= max. flexibility).
I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.
An idea:
1) Use the solution with a {single line} staff - as in your document “Thank you for being a friend (colors) test 1 page”.
2) Add two {single line} staves, to create a score with 3 staves.
In Other Words:
Use 3 {single line} staves instead of one {three line} staff.
You can adjust the vertical distance between the staves as needed - and the vertical spacing between the 3 staves can be different in different systems (= max. flexibility).
I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.
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It is clear, but ...
What's the easiest way to drag the notes from one stave to the others given that now the melody line will straddle three staves?
What's the easiest way to drag the notes from one stave to the others given that now the melody line will straddle three staves?
- Peter Thomsen
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Two ideas:LowellHouse wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:48 pm… What's the easiest way to drag the notes from one stave to the others given that now the melody line will straddle three staves?
1) Enter all the notes on the middle staff.
Then, use the Cross Staff plug-in (with its keyboard shortcut) to move notes to the staff above or below.
From the Selection Tool, drag-select the region you need moved to the staff above or below.
While holding down the correct modifier key (= the ALT key? - I am not sure), and hit the UpArrow key, or the DownArrow key.
The plug-in will do the work for you - fast!
2) When you enter the notes, enter them in the staff where you need them.
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Regarding 2), it seems that I'd have to enter rests to put them in relationship with the other staves?
We'll be going through many iterations to see what's easiest for us to play from. It may be that the numbers hold all the info and then just have the notes for rhythms. We can use underlines for the lower octave and strike through for the upper. I don't see that Finale let's us change the color for a single item, although we can change its style or font.
Is there a note font where the note heads themselves are numbers?
I'm also balancing the needs of performance with how long it takes to make a score. I could do everything manually with note expressions and the like, but there's a cost to it. Entering numbers as lyrics is quite quick.
We'll be going through many iterations to see what's easiest for us to play from. It may be that the numbers hold all the info and then just have the notes for rhythms. We can use underlines for the lower octave and strike through for the upper. I don't see that Finale let's us change the color for a single item, although we can change its style or font.
Is there a note font where the note heads themselves are numbers?
I'm also balancing the needs of performance with how long it takes to make a score. I could do everything manually with note expressions and the like, but there's a cost to it. Entering numbers as lyrics is quite quick.
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Yes.LowellHouse wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:52 pm… Regarding 2), it seems that I'd have to enter rests to put them in relationship with the other staves? …
You can choose to hide the rests.
I am not sure I understand “the color for a single item”.LowellHouse wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:52 pm… We'll be going through many iterations to see what's easiest for us to play from. It may be that the numbers hold all the info and then just have the notes for rhythms. We can use underlines for the lower octave and strike through for the upper. I don't see that Finale let's us change the color for a single item, although we can change its style or font …
Are you talking about using the 7 colors for the 7 scale degrees?
I am not sure I understand.LowellHouse wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:52 pm… Is there a note font where the note heads themselves are numbers? …
Do you mean something like this?
(Click on the attached graphic, to view it at full size)
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- miker
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Do you have different colored handles, or big numbers, on the bells?
My opinion only, of course, but I suspect it would take less time for them to learn to read music, instead of learning what your non-standard, multi-colored, single-line, no rest or duration, notation means.
My opinion only, of course, but I suspect it would take less time for them to learn to read music, instead of learning what your non-standard, multi-colored, single-line, no rest or duration, notation means.
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Haha. No.
Numbers are the quickest way to learn a tune. If you know the scale degrees, you can sing it and play it on any instrument that you know how to play a scale on. Ideally, all songs would be memorized and having to read something would not be an issue. We have weekly learning sections outside of playing, and getting them to read music, although something that we're working on slowly, is not practical.
The purpose of scores are twofold: having a songbook from which people can learn tunes, and having an easy thing to look at so they can practice performing and move towards having it memorized.
I can read music, but reading a score at 6 feet is problematic, and we need it to fit on two pages. I'll take a picture of our setup next week and it'll make more sense. You need both hands to play, there is no way of flipping pages that won't be disruptive, and there's not enough room in the crows nest to have someone hold the score for you and not be in your way of playing it.
Actual numbers are the easiest way to read and process the information, and we're just solving the fact that it only works if you already know the tune.
Numbers are the quickest way to learn a tune. If you know the scale degrees, you can sing it and play it on any instrument that you know how to play a scale on. Ideally, all songs would be memorized and having to read something would not be an issue. We have weekly learning sections outside of playing, and getting them to read music, although something that we're working on slowly, is not practical.
The purpose of scores are twofold: having a songbook from which people can learn tunes, and having an easy thing to look at so they can practice performing and move towards having it memorized.
I can read music, but reading a score at 6 feet is problematic, and we need it to fit on two pages. I'll take a picture of our setup next week and it'll make more sense. You need both hands to play, there is no way of flipping pages that won't be disruptive, and there's not enough room in the crows nest to have someone hold the score for you and not be in your way of playing it.
Actual numbers are the easiest way to read and process the information, and we're just solving the fact that it only works if you already know the tune.
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Ok. But having to put them in will probably make entering songs from scratch take longer.
Sorry. I'm talking about lyrics specifically. When entering lyrics, you can select a single lyric and apply style (plain, bold, etc.) as well as change the actual font or size. You can't make it a different color.Peter Thomsen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:50 pmAre you talking about using the 7 colors for the 7 scale degrees?
Yes, that's lovely. It would be nice if it did it automatically rather than me having to do it by hand, but yes. That might be a lovely combined version.Peter Thomsen wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:50 pmI am not sure I understand.
Do you mean something like this?
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I did not do my example “by hand”.LowellHouse wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:09 pm… Yes, that's lovely. It would be nice if it did it automatically rather than me having to do it by hand, but yes. That might be a lovely combined version.
My example was created as Tablature Notation for a (custom) 1-string instrument with diatonic fretboard.
However, the underline under certain numbers was added “by hand” with the Expression Tool.
Such “by hand” work does not have to take long if you use metatools.
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Wonderful. Could you share the Finale file you created it in, or is it fairly easy to set up from scratch?
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Here is the Finale document.
I did not spend much time on it.
You can probably improve it.
I did not spend much time on it.
You can probably improve it.
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- NonstandardNotation.musx
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Thank you. I'll take a look at it.
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This is great. The only think I have left to figure out is if Finale can only use the numbers 1 through 7 rather than 8 and up.
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Indeed it is possible to use the numbers 8 and up.LowellHouse wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:11 pmThis is great. The only think I have left to figure out is if Finale can only use the numbers 1 through 7 rather than 8 and up …
In my attached Finale document it is a matter of editing the custom diatonic fretboard instrument, by increasing the number of frets.
Here are the steps:
1) Open my attached Finale document.
2) Window menu > ScoreManager > Instrument List
3) In the Instrument List, next to Notation Style: Tablature, click on {Settings…}
4) In the Tablature Staff Attributes the custom fretboard instrument Bells is selected.
Click on {Edit Instruments…}
5) In the Fretboard Instrument Definition, increase the Number of Frets as needed.
6) Next to Diatonic, click on {Define…}.
The pattern af diatonic fretboards should be this:
2,2,2,1,2,2,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,2,1 &c.
(If you ignore the very first ‘2’, you can see the diatonic pattern)
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I mean, I don't want it to.
It has the tonic as 1 and the octave above it as 8.
2 and 9
3 and 10
It has the tonic as 1 and the octave above it as 8.
2 and 9
3 and 10
- Peter Thomsen
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I am confused.
Your attached examples show a notation that displays only the numbers from 1 to 7.
And I created a Tablature example that displays only the numbers from 1 to 7.
Then you wrote:
What is the problem?
If I misunderstand you, then I apologize.
Your attached examples show a notation that displays only the numbers from 1 to 7.
And I created a Tablature example that displays only the numbers from 1 to 7.
Then you wrote:
And I explained how my Finale document can be modified so that it can also use the higher numbers 8 and up.LowellHouse wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:11 pm… The only think I have left to figure out, is if Finale can only use the numbers 1 through 7 …
What is the problem?
If I misunderstand you, then I apologize.
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