Nonstandard notation creation

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LowellHouse
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Post by LowellHouse » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:22 am

Is there a way to change what staff line a note appears on?

I'm working on a score that's already using colored shape notes and I have the scale degrees above them. I've used the score manager dialog to change the score so that it only has three lines, the F, B, and E.

We have a set of bells that have the following notes:

G3 A3 B3 C4 D4 E4 F4 G4 A4 B4 C5 D5 E5 F5 G5

I would like G3 through B3 to appear on the bottom (E) line, C4 through B4 on the middle (B) line, and c5 through G5 to appear on the top (F) line.

Is there a way to assign notes to different staff lines? Can it be done without changing their midi pitch?


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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:14 am

Welcome to the forum!

Are you an experienced Finale user?

The layout you describe, is possible in Finale, but the solution is not for “Finale beginners”.

By The Way:
It would help if you could attach a picture of the layout - to avoid misunderstandings about the layout.
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LowellHouse
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Post by LowellHouse » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:42 pm

I don't have an easy way of producing a picture a this point.

If you could describe the procedure, that would be lovely. :)

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miker
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Post by miker » Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:20 pm

Can you simply draw a picture?

Is there an example if this type of notation posted anywhere on line?

And, though I really try to avoid this question, why? Is this easier, in some way, for the players? Maybe you have the bells color coded,
But still, a regular staff shows pitches going up or down, rather than 8 colored notes on a single line. Just my opinion, of course.
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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:28 pm

I think I know what he wants--a three-line staff, with the lowest bells in colored notes on the bottom line, middle range on the middle line, and highest notes on the top line, and correctly playing back.

The colors are intended as a teaching tool to augment the traditional placing of pitches, not as an alternative notation. With a percussion staff you could perhaps put multiple pitches on one line, though I don't know about colored notes. Personally, I think it would be better to use traditional notation, perhaps with colored notes, and teach the players to read the notation--it will serve them well anyway. If there are three players, then use three staves.

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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:05 pm

LowellHouse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:42 pm
I don't have an easy way of producing a picture a this point.

If you could describe the procedure, that would be lovely.
I would be happy to describe the procedure, but I can not do so before I understand, what the layout should look like.

Your description is not clear to me:
LowellHouse wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:22 am
… I'm working on a score that's already using colored shape notes and I have the scale degrees above them. I've used the score manager dialog to change the score so that it only has three lines, the F, B, and E.

We have a set of bells that have the following notes:

G3 A3 B3 C4 D4 E4 F4 G4 A4 B4 C5 D5 E5 F5 G5

I would like G3 through B3 to appear on the bottom (E) line, C4 through B4 on the middle (B) line, and c5 through G5 to appear on the top (F) line …
What does “colored shape notes” mean?
- Does each scale degree have its own color? If yes, then what are the colors???
- Does each scale degree have its own note shape? If yes, then what are the shapes???
- What does it mean that you “have the scale degrees above them”? - Perhaps text above each note???

It sounds like a lot of redundant information if you have the same info three times:
1) a specific color for each scale degree,
2) a specific note shape for each scale degree,
3) above each note a text with the scale degree.

Why did you use the ScoreManager dialog to “change the score so that it only has three lines, the F, B, and E”?
I mean:
- What do you need, exactly?
- What is the problem you are trying to solve?
- Is it important that the three lines are exactly F, B, and E? - and why?
It is possible to create a custom staff with only three lines (any three lines, with any vertical distance).

The better we understand, the better we can help you.

If you “simply draw a picture” as Mike suggests, we can get a much better idea of the layout.

Without a picture we can only guess.
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LowellHouse
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Post by LowellHouse » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:42 am

I'll have to post more detail later, but a general overview is:

We play tunes on 18 Russian bells weekly. There are cords of wire arranged like a keyboard that we push to sound them. Most of our ringers are non-musicians, so, yes, there is a lot of redundant information.

Are current scores are lists of scale-degree numbers: they are space efficient and easy to read at a distance. They don't, however, convey rhythm. Another weakness of numbers if we don't resort to -7 and +1 sorts of notation is knowing which note is meant to be rung. We have 3 Gs (scale degree 5). If we consider C4 to B4 our main octave, in my notation for B3 I color the number as a blue 7 and have an underline under it. For D5 I color it red.

Basically we have three zones: G3 to B3, C4 to B4, and C5 to G5. Thus the three lines on the staff.

They will know what scale degree the note is because, not only is it labeled with the number, but Finale already has a template for shape-note notation where each scale degree has its own shape. It also, with the click of a button, will color the note with a color specific to its scale degree.

Reducing a score to three lines allows us to enlarge it to a size easily read but still fit it on two pages which we can attach to a clipboard hanging to the side wall. Actual notation allows people to know the rhythm.

I've attached a shape note score which is too long and too small to be useful in its current form.
Attachments
Thank you for being a friend (colors).musx
Color/shape note score
(148.75 KiB) Downloaded 52 times

LowellHouse
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Post by LowellHouse » Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:42 am

Here's an example of the simple scale degree notation.
Baidin Feilimi.png
Scale degree notation.

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Post by LowellHouse » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:14 am

Here's what reducing everything to a single line would look like, but you can't tell what octave is in.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:35 pm

LowellHouse,

An idea:

1) Use the solution with a {single line} staff - as in your document “Thank you for being a friend (colors) test 1 page”.

2) Add two {single line} staves, to create a score with 3 staves.

In Other Words:
Use 3 {single line} staves instead of one {three line} staff.

You can adjust the vertical distance between the staves as needed - and the vertical spacing between the 3 staves can be different in different systems (= max. flexibility).

I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.
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LowellHouse
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Post by LowellHouse » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:48 pm

It is clear, but ...

What's the easiest way to drag the notes from one stave to the others given that now the melody line will straddle three staves?

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:17 pm

LowellHouse wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:48 pm
… What's the easiest way to drag the notes from one stave to the others given that now the melody line will straddle three staves?
Two ideas:

1) Enter all the notes on the middle staff.
Then, use the Cross Staff plug-in (with its keyboard shortcut) to move notes to the staff above or below.
From the Selection Tool, drag-select the region you need moved to the staff above or below.
While holding down the correct modifier key (= the ALT key? - I am not sure), and hit the UpArrow key, or the DownArrow key.
The plug-in will do the work for you - fast!

2) When you enter the notes, enter them in the staff where you need them.
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LowellHouse
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Post by LowellHouse » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:52 pm

Regarding 2), it seems that I'd have to enter rests to put them in relationship with the other staves?

We'll be going through many iterations to see what's easiest for us to play from. It may be that the numbers hold all the info and then just have the notes for rhythms. We can use underlines for the lower octave and strike through for the upper. I don't see that Finale let's us change the color for a single item, although we can change its style or font.
Thank you for being a friend (rhythm).png
Is there a note font where the note heads themselves are numbers?

I'm also balancing the needs of performance with how long it takes to make a score. I could do everything manually with note expressions and the like, but there's a cost to it. Entering numbers as lyrics is quite quick.

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Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:50 pm

LowellHouse wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:52 pm
… Regarding 2), it seems that I'd have to enter rests to put them in relationship with the other staves? …
Yes.
You can choose to hide the rests.
LowellHouse wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:52 pm
… We'll be going through many iterations to see what's easiest for us to play from. It may be that the numbers hold all the info and then just have the notes for rhythms. We can use underlines for the lower octave and strike through for the upper. I don't see that Finale let's us change the color for a single item, although we can change its style or font …
I am not sure I understand “the color for a single item”.
Are you talking about using the 7 colors for the 7 scale degrees?
LowellHouse wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:52 pm
… Is there a note font where the note heads themselves are numbers? …
I am not sure I understand.
Do you mean something like this?
(Click on the attached graphic, to view it at full size)
Attachments
NumberNoteheads.jpg
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miker
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Post by miker » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:39 pm

Do you have different colored handles, or big numbers, on the bells?

My opinion only, of course, but I suspect it would take less time for them to learn to read music, instead of learning what your non-standard, multi-colored, single-line, no rest or duration, notation means.
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LowellHouse
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Post by LowellHouse » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:52 pm

Haha. No.

Numbers are the quickest way to learn a tune. If you know the scale degrees, you can sing it and play it on any instrument that you know how to play a scale on. Ideally, all songs would be memorized and having to read something would not be an issue. We have weekly learning sections outside of playing, and getting them to read music, although something that we're working on slowly, is not practical.

The purpose of scores are twofold: having a songbook from which people can learn tunes, and having an easy thing to look at so they can practice performing and move towards having it memorized.

I can read music, but reading a score at 6 feet is problematic, and we need it to fit on two pages. I'll take a picture of our setup next week and it'll make more sense. You need both hands to play, there is no way of flipping pages that won't be disruptive, and there's not enough room in the crows nest to have someone hold the score for you and not be in your way of playing it.

Actual numbers are the easiest way to read and process the information, and we're just solving the fact that it only works if you already know the tune.

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Post by LowellHouse » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:09 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:50 pm
Yes.
You can choose to hide the rests.
Ok. But having to put them in will probably make entering songs from scratch take longer.
Peter Thomsen wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:50 pm
Are you talking about using the 7 colors for the 7 scale degrees?
Sorry. I'm talking about lyrics specifically. When entering lyrics, you can select a single lyric and apply style (plain, bold, etc.) as well as change the actual font or size. You can't make it a different color.
Peter Thomsen wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:50 pm
I am not sure I understand.
Do you mean something like this?
Yes, that's lovely. It would be nice if it did it automatically rather than me having to do it by hand, but yes. That might be a lovely combined version.

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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:13 am

LowellHouse wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:09 pm
… Yes, that's lovely. It would be nice if it did it automatically rather than me having to do it by hand, but yes. That might be a lovely combined version.
I did not do my example “by hand”.
My example was created as Tablature Notation for a (custom) 1-string instrument with diatonic fretboard.

However, the underline under certain numbers was added “by hand” with the Expression Tool.
Such “by hand” work does not have to take long if you use metatools.
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LowellHouse
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Post by LowellHouse » Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:46 am

Wonderful. Could you share the Finale file you created it in, or is it fairly easy to set up from scratch?

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:23 am

Here is the Finale document.

I did not spend much time on it.
You can probably improve it.
Attachments
NonstandardNotation.musx
(14.99 KiB) Downloaded 54 times
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LowellHouse
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Post by LowellHouse » Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:52 pm

Thank you. I'll take a look at it.

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Post by LowellHouse » Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:11 pm

This is great. The only think I have left to figure out is if Finale can only use the numbers 1 through 7 rather than 8 and up.
NonstandardNotation experiment.jpg

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:27 pm

LowellHouse wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:11 pm
This is great. The only think I have left to figure out is if Finale can only use the numbers 1 through 7 rather than 8 and up …
Indeed it is possible to use the numbers 8 and up.

In my attached Finale document it is a matter of editing the custom diatonic fretboard instrument, by increasing the number of frets.

Here are the steps:

1) Open my attached Finale document.

2) Window menu > ScoreManager > Instrument List

3) In the Instrument List, next to Notation Style: Tablature, click on {Settings…}

4) In the Tablature Staff Attributes the custom fretboard instrument Bells is selected.
Click on {Edit Instruments…}

5) In the Fretboard Instrument Definition, increase the Number of Frets as needed.

6) Next to Diatonic, click on {Define…}.
The pattern af diatonic fretboards should be this:
2,2,2,1,2,2,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,2,1 &c.
(If you ignore the very first ‘2’, you can see the diatonic pattern)
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LowellHouse
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Post by LowellHouse » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:56 am

I mean, I don't want it to.

It has the tonic as 1 and the octave above it as 8.
2 and 9
3 and 10

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:46 pm

I am confused.

Your attached examples show a notation that displays only the numbers from 1 to 7.

And I created a Tablature example that displays only the numbers from 1 to 7.

Then you wrote:
LowellHouse wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:11 pm
… The only think I have left to figure out, is if Finale can only use the numbers 1 through 7 …
And I explained how my Finale document can be modified so that it can also use the higher numbers 8 and up.

What is the problem?

If I misunderstand you, then I apologize.
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