Couple of questions

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon May 02, 2022 12:18 pm

David Ward wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 7:15 am
Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 9:59 pm
It just matters for me knowing what's what when editing something which I didn't do myself. I think I cannot make myself clearer than this. Sorry.
I sometimes feel a little unsure even when editing something which I have previously entered myself using voices, since I only use them occasionally. If there were a key one could press that would temporarily show notes in Voice 1 and Voice 2 each in its own colour, maybe that might help.
You can get that info via the Speedy Entry Tool’s (very technical) dialog box Edit Frame where it is specified for each end every entry
- whether Voice 2 is launched from that entry
- whether the entry is in Voice 2

How to get to the Edit Frame dialog box:
Speedy Entry Tool.
Click outside the staff, to exit the entry rectangle.
Hold down the correct modifier key (Windows: CTRL, Mac: Option), and click on the staff/measure.
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Progman
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Post by Progman » Fri May 06, 2022 1:16 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sun May 01, 2022 6:24 pm
Instead of a tie between Layer 1 and Layer 2, use something that works:
a tie between Voice 1 and Voice 2 of the same layer.

In this example only the initial quarter note is in Layer 2.
All other notes are in Layer 1.
The whole note is in Voice 1 (of Layer 1), whereas the two simultaneous quarters and one half are in Voice 2 (of Layer 1).

To use Voice 2 you must switch to the Speedy Entry Tool (= not possible in the Simple Entry Tool).
First, enter the whole note. This is Voice 1.
Then, move back onto the whole note, and hit the ' key. Now you are in Voice 2. Enter the two quarters and the half.
Thanks for the suggestion of using voices. Looks cleaner. I will try to incorporate voices if needed.
Would you say a good general rule is use layers first and if something cannot be done with layers than use voices?


Which is more accepted professionally, using a dot for the last notes in these two bars for minimalism or to break the each dotted halves into a quarter and half in to give more visual indication of the bass beat?
dot or not.jpg
And which of these is more accepted?
examples.jpg

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri May 06, 2022 3:32 pm

My own shot at it.
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Progman
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Post by Progman » Fri May 06, 2022 8:51 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 3:32 pm
My own shot at it.
Yes, this is it, i think, because its kind of faster to figure out the notes length when its a quarter and a half, it gives clearer indication of the beat. More pianist friendly.
Btw, why all your notes are in black? Did you turn off the red color from layer 2 somehow or did you write all the shots with only layer 1's voice 1 and voice 2?

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat May 07, 2022 6:22 am

Progman wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 8:51 pm
… Btw, why all your notes are in black? Did you turn off the red color from layer 2 somehow or did you write all the shots with only layer 1's voice 1 and voice 2?
I suppose that some of your notes are red, because you took a screen shot of the open Finale document window - right?

I did not take a screen shot.

Instead I used the Graphics Tool to export a selected area.
All notes are black when you export from a Finale document, or when you print (unless you specifically choose to Print Display Colors).
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Progman
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Post by Progman » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:04 am

How to create rolled notes for a piano piece when the chord is spread between the G key staff (right hand)and the F key staff )left hand) and how to make finale midi playback play it correctly?
rolled chord.png
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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:27 pm

Use the arpeggio articulation; just drag it to cover both staves.
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Progman
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Post by Progman » Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:02 pm

Already tried. It only breaks the B to C notes of the right hand and plays the F and E as a chord. How to make finale midi playback actually play the rolled chord as intended to play, from the bottom to top (F>E>B>C)?

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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:24 pm

How about adding (and hiding) the B and C to the bass chord?
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Progman
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Post by Progman » Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:51 pm

miker wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:24 pm
How about adding (and hiding) the B and C to the bass chord?
Is there a way to make it happen without doing tricks on finale?
I'm sure finale devs thought about rolled chords between F clef and G clef. Pretty common playing technique in piano playing i would say...

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Post by Progman » Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:19 am

For some reason finale flips back ties position after some time, how to prevent this from happening?
Finale Flipped back these ties for example:
flipped.png
flipped.png (75.37 KiB) Viewed 2264 times
How it looked before:
not flipped.png
not flipped.png (69.67 KiB) Viewed 2264 times
What are the rules for if a tie should be flipped or not? Are my ties position right?

Btw, Any chance someone here has an answer to my rolled chord question? Or better email finale support or something?

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:45 pm

I simply overwrite existing notes or move them about in Speedy Entry.

Using the Expression tool for fingering is unacceptable to me as they drift out of position over time: I create fingering in the Articulation tool that does a better job of keeping them in place and permits positioning of the notation without separation from the fingering.

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:08 am

You must not be using the right positioning for expressions, since they don't drift if defined correctly (see below). Perhaps you're not attaching them to the proper note. But articulations are fine for fingerings.
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Post by Progman » Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:28 pm

Djard wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:45 pm
I simply overwrite existing notes or move them about in Speedy Entry.

Using the Expression tool for fingering is unacceptable to me as they drift out of position over time: I create fingering in the Articulation tool that does a better job of keeping them in place and permits positioning of the notation without separation from the fingering.
Which question are you answering here?

Happened to me a few times as well. Can you write how to creating fingerings using the articulation tool?

motet wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:08 am
You must not be using the right positioning for expressions, since they don't drift if defined correctly (see below). Perhaps you're not attaching them to the proper note. But articulations are fine for fingerings.
I use Center, Center of all noteheads, Staff reference line. When i changed to your suggestion it moved the fingerings to a too high position... Should i try your settings only on a new piece since i already manual moved the fingering using my settings? I would like the fingerings to be in the center of the noteheads.
Also, with my settings, almost all the times the position of the fingering is too low or dropped on top of something else which makes it less readable so i spend quite a lot of times just repositioning fingerings to where they are most readable. Is there a fix to this?

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Post by motet » Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:20 pm

I would use the built-in articulations. My example of expression positioning was just to show that they need not drift out of position. If you want to use expressions though, use a different vertical position that what's shown in my example. You can add or subtract an offset, "Above entry" with an offset, for example.

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Post by Djard » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:42 pm

When I set the parameters in the Positioning tab, the expression no longer appears in the Selection panel. Rather than contend with yet another MakeMusic bug, I simply use the reliable Articulation tool. For example, to create, say, p-i-m-a for right hand on guitar...

1. Articulation tool -> click on a note or rest -> Create.
2. Set Font -> select Bookman Old Style, light Italic, 9 pt -> OK.
3. Main -> choose "p" -> Select.
4. Vertical positioning: Manual (since I often find a need to move the fingering in a polyphonic staff) -> OK.
5. Duplicate -> Edit -> Main -> choose "i" -> Select -> OK.
6. Keep duplicating a symbol then modify it to truncate the process of adding more symbols.

When entering fingering into the score, I use the arrow keys to nudge the letter or number into precise location. In heavily edited documents, after modifying a section of fingering, I often find the need to drag the vertical and horizontal scroll bars back and forth to see where the fingering symbol settles.

As for the use of the arpeggiated chord articulation, Mike's option does not work for me with piano: Finale refuses to keep the playback effect as "Change duration." It automatically reverts to "Change attack." Yo may opt to use the following option.

I sometimes have to create two or three symbols and join them up for correct playback, such as when the chord is spread across two or three layers. For example, in an upward roll with two notes in layer 2 and three notes in layer 1, the "Bottom note value" in layer 2 is -256 and "Top note value" is -205. In layer 1, the Bottom note value is -154 and the top note value is 0. I keep a chart for the various chord groups for reference.

THREE NOTE
1 -171
2 -342
3 -512

Top note starts at -85 and ends on 0
Second note starts at -171 and ends on -85
Bottom note starts at -256, ends on -171

FOUR NOTE
1 -64
2 -128
3 -192
4 -256

FIVE NOTE
1 -51
2 -102
3 -154
4 -205
5 -256

1 -102 (duration 512 EVPUs)
2 -204
3 -306
4 -410
5 -512

SIX NOTE
1 -43
2 -85
3 -128
4 -171
5 -213
6 -256

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:55 pm

Djard wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:42 pm
When I set the parameters in the Positioning tab, the expression no longer appears in the Selection panel.
Color me skeptical. Can you provide the steps which lead to that?

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Post by Progman » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:07 pm

^^ Thanks guys.
@Djard
What do you mean by THREE NOTE, FOUR NOTE? I write music for piano.


I started using the articulation tool to add fingerings. I choose, vertical positioning: above note, and ticked "Center over stem..."
I encountered a problem though, when i enter fingering for one note it lands on the center of the stem, how do i make the fingering land above the center of a note when there is only one note? I only want it to land above center of a stem when there is more than one note.
Also, fingering still needs manual positioning...

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:38 pm

Motet: I could not replicate the issue I described. It seems that restarting Finale solved that problem.

Progman: I was referring to chords, controlling playback with the arpeggiation symbol. On guitar, up to six notes is possible in four layers of polyphonic music. On piano, you could have up to 10. The method I shared lets you create playback of the arpeggiated chord symbol correctly: for example, you can create one symbol for the left hand and one for the right, joining the two symbols to appear as one. In an ascending arpeggiated 5 note chord, the bass part could start at -256 and end at, say, -205 then the treble part would continue, say, from -205 to zero, depending on how many notes in the chord. For slower arpeggiation, you might start a full beat ahead, starting at -512 EVPUs.

I have never been able to make the positioning settings work in Articulation Designer, so I enter the articulation as close as possible to the target location then nudge it into precise place with the arrow keys. But there is a way to have them appear in a specific location immediately upon entry. The latter requires that you click exactly in the center of the target note, each time you enter the articulation; otherwise you will be nudging it about. The option is to create the articulation as a shape, using Shape Designer, which is not easy to use. The steps are laborious; but once created, the articulations can be saved in a library file for use in new documents,

I will be happy to share the steps for creating fingering as shapes, but be aware that MakeMusic deemed it wise not to overwrite a duplicate articulation when loading a saved library file into a new document (sigh!). If you keep loading an updated library into a document, it will soon become bloated with many thousands of duplicated articulations. And a bloated library file can further destabilize Finale.

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:26 pm

You shouldn't have nudge, at least not horizontally. If they're not to your liking, adjust the handle offset in the definition. Apply with a metatool to get the precise definition rather than just clicking.

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Post by N Grossingink » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:43 pm

Using my copy of Finale 26, the default Articulation selection contains fingering numbers (1-5). The picture below shows how they position by default. Pretty good, I'd say.

By the way, I changed the font from the ugly Times Bold to a font called Nepomuk (Bold). It has a nice traditional look, like the old-school engravers. Nepomuk was compiled by Florian Kretlow and further enhanced by our friend Wiggy. It is available for free (!) at the following link:
https://github.com/benwiggy/nepomuk
Screen Shot 2022-08-07 at 8.00.12 AM.jpg
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Djard
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Post by Djard » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:32 am

Really nice. Thanks.

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Post by Progman » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:25 am

Thanks for the replies.

In regard to rolled chord between left and right hand, for four note chord from left hand to right hand, i used: -512,-256, -128, 0. It sounds alright but just a little bit slower than i want. How to fasten the rolled chord playback just a little bit?

In articulation fingerings, i like that it auto stack fingering above eachother and that it lands on a blank space not covering other things. Hopefully fingerings won't move over time like they do when using fingering in expression tool. One issue i find, the distance between stacked fingerings is too far for my liking. How to change the default distance between each fingering? How to change the default distance between fingering and other things like notes, slur, etc.

@Djard
Can you share the steps for creating fingering as shapes? I never used shape designer. Having fingering appear in a specific location immediately upon entry sounds nice.

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:34 pm

To play back a shorter arpeggiated chord with the articulation symbol, follow these steps...

1. Highlight the symbol in the Articulation Selection panel -> Duplicate -> Edit -> set as follows, which is the default setting:

~ Top note value: 0
~ Bottom note value: -256

2. OK. You will now have a shorter arpeggiation marker.

Playback starting at -512 is a whole beat duration, -256 is a half beat. You can type any figure in the Bottom note value box, depending on the speed you want it played back.

As for using shapes instead of characters for fingering, I recommend following Motet's suggestion of creating them with the Expression Tool or Articulation Tool, wherewith their position can be predetermined but still manually nudged with the arrow keys if adjustment is needed. It is safe to create numbers as articulations but not letters as some genius at MakeMusic assigned an ornament to the letter "m," regardless of the font. If you still want to create fingering as shapes, below are the steps I once used for the guitarist's right hand (pianists will use numbers only). The only advantage with this option is that the item will be placed exactly where you want it, providing you click exactly in the center of the note.

1. Temporarily write a whole note -> zoom in 400%.
2. Articulation Tool (upper icon menu) -> click in the center of the note.
3. Create -> in "Symbols" section, check "Shape."
4. Main -> Create -> Shape (at left).
5. Main -> Create -> from "View" drop-down menu, select 200%.
6. ShapeDesigner (upper text menu) -> Select Font.
7. Choose, say, "Maestro Times, Italic, 10pt" -> OK.
8. Text Insert ("A" icon) -> click anywhere lower left of center circle.
9. Type the letter "i" (without quotation marks).
10. Pick tool (diagonal arrow icon) -> click on the symbol to select it.
11. Use the arrow keys on keyboard to move the symbol to the following coordinates.

H: 0.0138
V: 0.125

The coordinates herein may be different on your computer. In such case, see "Edit" below. You will simply move the shape in the Shape Designer and save.

12. OK -> Select -> OK -> Select.


EDIT

Follow steps below to make any fine adjustments.

13. Double-click on handle of the figure -> Shape -> Main -> select (highlight) the figure -> Edit.
14. Selection tool (arrow icon) -> double-click on the letter (handles turn pink) -> use arrow keys to adjust position of the figure.
15. OK -> Select -> OK -> Select.

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