Couple of questions

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Progman
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Post by Progman » Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:33 am

Got couple of questions, using Finale 14, Windows 10:
1. How to change certain notes length without deleting the whole bar first?
2. How to create keyboard shortcut to call the simple entry tool and any other tool for that matter?
3. When adding fingerings using the expression tool, is there a way to highlight and assign notes with the keyboard only, instead of holding a button, hovering on each note with the mouse cursor and clicking to assign with the left button?
4. What is the keyboard shortcut to browse between different opened documents other than CTRL+F6?
5. Do i have to use 2-4 voices for chords with different note length? If so, how to avoid this mess (used the second voice to write the note D)? Or am i doing it wrong?
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:34 pm

Welcome to the forum!

I am using Mac Finale.
Hopefully a Windows Finale user will chime in with some Windows specific tricks.

First of all, I highly recommend the Finale tutorials.
Have you e. g. been through the tutorial document {EnteryExercises.musx}?

1) “How to change certain notes length without deleting the whole bar first?”
Finale has two entry tools:
Speedy Entry Tool and Simple Entry Tool.
In both tools it is possible to change the rhythmical value without deleting the whole measure first.
Which tool are you asking about?

2) “How to create keyboard shortcut to call the simple entry tool and any other tool for that matter?”
Hopefully a windows user will chime in here.

3) “When adding fingerings using the expression tool, is there a way to highlight and assign notes with the keyboard only, instead of holding a button, hovering on each note with the mouse cursor and clicking to assign with the left button?”
It sounds like you are not familiar with metatools. ‘Metatools’ is the “Finale-speak” word for ‘user programmed shortcuts’.
To program a metatool you must be in the relevant Finale tool.
To program an expression metatool you must be in the Expression Tool.
Hold down Shift while (on the computer keyboard) pressing the key you want to program as trigger key (e. g. the letter E key).
Finale will display the Expression Selection where you can choose which expression the metatool should enter.
From now on you can add the expression by holding down the trigger key (e. g. the letter E key), and dragging across the staff.
The expression will be assigned to each and every note in the region you drag across.
You can also use the programmed metatool from the Simple Entry Tool - without leaving the Simple Entry Tool!

4) “What is the keyboard shortcut to browse between different opened documents other than CTRL+F6?”
Hopefully a windows user will chime in here.

5) “Do I have to use 2-4 voices for chords with different note length?”
I suppose that you by your word ‘voices’ mean the “Finale-speak” word ‘layers’ - right?
Instead of using layers you can also use the Speedy Entry Tool feature {Voice 1 / Voice 2}.
Voice 1 and Voice 2 are in the same layer, and each layer can have a Voice 1 and a Voice 2, thus making it possible to enter 8 simultaneous lines in the same staff (but you will probably never ever need that many).
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dtoub
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Post by dtoub » Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:15 pm

Re: your first item: I only use Speedy Entry, so this is specific to that. I do this all the time; just position the cursor on the note whose duration you want to change and then hit the number key (5 for a quarter note, 6 for half, 4 for eighth, etc) and that's that. I have the options for Speedy Entry set to check for extra notes, so if you increased the duration beyond what is appropriate for that time signature, you'll get a message asking how you want to handle this. If you click on Delete the extra notes, you're good.

For your second question, I'm a Mac user, but honestly I just always use the Tool Palette and click on the Speedy Entry button. I do wish that the palette were actually customizable so that I could remove Simple Entry and other things I don't use, but that's how it is. The palette is your friend, however.

For #3, yes, meta tools are the way to go.

For #4: I can only comment on a Mac, and I have mine set to open new windows in tabs. But usually something like cmd-tilde works (I would suggest trying CTL-tilde on a PC).

#5: using voice 2 is also useful here, and while I've never done it in conjunction with layers to add additional notes of different durations, Peter is very correct. My druthers would be to use a different staff for some of the other notes but that's me.
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mmike
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Post by mmike » Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:55 pm

“How to create keyboard shortcut to call the simple entry tool and any other tool for that matter?”
With Plug-ins > TGTools > Menu Shortcuts you can assign pretty much any menu function to shortcut keys or combinations of your choice
“What is the keyboard shortcut to browse between different opened documents other than CTRL+F6?”
Ctrl + Tab key on the left
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Progman
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Post by Progman » Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:24 pm

Thanks for the replies.

1. I would like to operate via Simple entry - isn't it better for my purpose? I thought speedy entry is used when typing via musical keyboard. My preferred way of working is using the keyboard as much as possible. The mouse puts more strain on the hand and fingers and i love keyboard macros. So any tool that allow to work with a keyboard only is better for me.
3. I know metatools, i programmed 1-5 in the expression metatool for fingering, for example, i press and hold the key "1" and left click on a note to assign. The question is, how to execute the command without using a mouse at all?
5. Yes, those 1-4 layer buttons in the bottom of the window. Is it possible to do using simple entry?

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:03 pm

Progman wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:24 pm
… 1. I would like to operate via Simple entry - isn't it better for my purpose? I thought speedy entry is used when typing via musical keyboard. My preferred way of working is using the keyboard as much as possible. The mouse puts more strain on the hand and fingers and i love keyboard macros. So any tool that allow to work with a keyboard only is better for me …
You can use Speedy Entry with the computer keyboard (= without a MIDI keyboard).

The names Simple Entry and Speedy Entry are misleading.
Both entry tools are fast and advanced.
The main difference between Simple and Speedy is the order you do things:
Simple: First specify the rhythmical value. Then the scale step will trigger the entry.
Speedy: First specify the scale step. Then the rhythmical value will trigger the entry.

Progman wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:24 pm
… 3. I know metatools, i programmed 1-5 in the expression metatool for fingering, for example, i press and hold the key "1" and left click on a note to assign. The question is, how to execute the command without using a mouse at all? …
I do not know of a way to add expressions without the mouse, sorry.

You can do a lot in the Simple Entry Tool, using only the computer keyboard.
If you have programmed metatools you can even - without leaving the Simple Entry Tool - add time signature changes, key signature changes, clef changes - and articulations (but not expressions).

Also, the Simple Entry sub-tool Repitch Tool can be very handy.

From your description I suspect that you have not done the tutorial {EntryExercises.musx}.
* Am I right?

Progman wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:24 pm
… 5. Yes, those 1-4 layer buttons in the bottom of the window. Is it possible to do using simple entry? …
There are keyboard shortcuts for switching between the layers.
My guess is that you can see the keyboard shortcuts if you look in the sub-menu
View menu > Select Layer > …

Generally, if there is a keyboard shortcut for a menu command, then that keyboard shortcut is displayed in the menu.

Take e. g. a good look at the menus and sub-menus in the Simple Entry Tool.
You will see many keyboard shortcuts there.
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Progman
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Post by Progman » Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:31 pm

Where is this EntryExercises.musx located?

How do i avoid the rests when writing chords with different note duration when using simple entry like the minor third in the above screen shot?

I guess i keep using simple entry.

dtoub
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Post by dtoub » Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:54 pm

Agree with Peter re: Speedy Entry. I've only used it since the early 90's and for a few years of that I hadn't yet added my synthesizer to my Mac via MIDI, so I once notated an entire long work for string orchestra while in a call room at a hospital on an old PowerBook 520C, just via the laptop keyboard. Speedy is amazing.
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miker
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Post by miker » Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:05 pm

Just move the rests, when they collide. This is something it should do automatically, but doesn’t. Simply select the rest, and use the up or down arrows to move them out of the way.

Speedy may be great, if you’re good with a MIDI keyboard.

I have used Simple from the start, and have gotten pretty darn speedy with it (pun intended.) The trick (if it is one) is to use the numberpad to choose your duration, enter rests, and add accidentals, and the QWERTY keyboard to select pitches A-G, dots, parentheses, build chords, etc. There is also a Laptop shortcut set, for users whose laptops don’t include a numberpad.

Both Simple and Speedy have pretty much the same capabilities, although a couple are exclusive to one or the other. I’m firmly convinced that “which one is better” is which one you learned, first, and got good at using.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:21 pm

Progman wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:31 pm
… Where is this EntryExercises.musx located? …
I am not a Windows user, but try
"C:\ProgramData\MakeMusic\Finale 2014\Music Files\Tutorials"

Progman wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:31 pm
… How do I avoid the rests when writing chords with different note duration when using simple entry like the minor third in the above screen shot? …
Two ideas:

1) You can hide notes and rests by hitting the letter H key.
Just do it, and “fahget about it”.

2) In the Speedy Entry Tool there is the feature {Voice 1 / Voice 2}.
In the screen shot, enter the quarter note.
Then, go back onto the quarter note, and launch Voice 2.
Enter the two 8ths in Voice 2.
Switch to Voice 1, and enter the remaining notes.
In that way everything is in the same layer, and there will be no rests.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:28 pm

5. Do i have to use 2-4 voices for chords with different note length?
You may be confusing the two different ways of entering notes in a measure. You have four "layers" possible and you also have two separate "voices" for each layer. Layers and voices operate very differently. Almost always layers is the best.

Layer 1 and 2
layer.jpg
Voice 2
voice 2.jpg
The notes on layer 1 all belong to layer 1, in this case, although I was in voice 2.
Last edited by ebiggs1 on Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:31 pm

Judging from your picture, it looks like your piece is in 6/4 or 3/2, but I'm guessing from the red rests that you've set it up as 6 quarter notes (a common misunderstanding). That will give you trouble in terms of beaming and filling with rests, so you want to use one of the others, depending if it's in 2 or in 3.
Attachments
Image3.png
Image2.png
Image1.png

Progman
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Post by Progman » Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:04 pm

Maybe some time i will try to add notes with my Nord Stage 2 88, the thing is, I use a desktop PC and my keys are to the side of the desktop monitor, not in front, so i can't look at the screen and play at the same time without breaking my neck.

In simple entry, i moved the note duration entry from the QWERTY to the number row even though i use a standard desktop keyboard because i find using the number rows more comfortable and closer to other key commands but i lost the default commands for 1-8 so now i can't instantly type notes in a chord that are above the existing note. what would be your solution to that? I mean, a lot of keyboards, even brand new once for desktop, ditch the QWERTY side because its not ergonomic.

No way to hide the rests? If not, Hitting H will hide them when i print the music?

I have "...Music files\Exercises" but only these kind of files appear:
2.jpg
@ebiggs1
So what is the purpose of layer 3 and 4? Maybe i need to do some more tutorial reading...

@motet
Yeah, you are right, i changed from 6/4 six eighths to 6/4 of two dotted halfs

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:40 pm

Layers 3 and 4 are for whatever you want. I've occasionally used three layers, as in the lower staff here:
Attachments
0042.png
0042.png (5.84 KiB) Viewed 3646 times

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:40 pm

@ebiggs1
So what is the purpose of layer 3 and 4? Maybe i need to do some more tutorial reading...
Layer 3 and 4 are used in exactly the same way as 1 and 2. Well not exactly because by default they do not self correct for things like stem direction. Other uses might be a place to put cue notes as it is pretty common to use layer 4 and make it a non-playing layer.

If you have two parts like Alto Sax 1&2 on one staff line in the score you can put A. Sax 1 on layer 1 and A. Sax 2 on layer 2 or any other layer that you choose. What I mean is, you can use layers for more than just different rhythms.

It is possible to have eight different things going on at the same time. Four independent layers and two voices per layer. Keep in mind voices act differently than layers. It is best to think of voices as per beat or note.

BTW, you can set rests to consolidate in layers so you don't get the three odd looking rests in the above example.
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Progman
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Post by Progman » Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:23 pm

@ebiggs1
How to consolidate rests in layers in simple entry?

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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:41 pm

He's talking about combining rests from different layers, and I think he was referring to my example above. I don't see any such in yours. What you posted has a string of quarter rests because you used the wrong time signature, as I said. Delete them and Finale should fill it with rests properly.

Progman
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Post by Progman » Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:05 am

Yeah, i changed the time signature to 6/4 two dotted halfs, left with two rests that were displaying on layer 1 notes, moved them below the notes and it looks normal now:
3.jpg
3.jpg (7.99 KiB) Viewed 3509 times

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michelp
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Post by michelp » Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:53 am

Make sure that notes align correctly in both layers.
Michel
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Progman
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Post by Progman » Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:06 pm

@michelp
Yeah, Changed things a bit and the bar (bar 2) ended with 3 different voices:
3.jpg
3.jpg (8.12 KiB) Viewed 3476 times
This is a 4 voice bar (bar 4) from the same piece i'm writing:
4.jpg
4.jpg (10.74 KiB) Viewed 3476 times
The same bar 4 with more separation in voices:
Bar 4 - more separated voices.jpg
Bar 4 - more separated voices.jpg (10.92 KiB) Viewed 3476 times
Some questions:
1. This is a piece i meant for a piano, not for a choir. Should i still write the piece with distinct separate voices as if it was written for a choir? Some voices overlap... I'm classically trained pianist in my background but i'm actually not 100% sure.
2. Is it ok to use only 2 layers?
3. Are the rests in bar 4 placed in the correct position?
4. In bar 4, why is the F note of the second voice in the end of the bar placed so far from the F of the first voice? It is wrongly placed above the B note of the base...

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:10 pm

@ebiggs1
How to consolidate rests in layers in simple entry?

Yes referring to future use and explaining the use of layer and voices in general.
layers.jpg
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michelp
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Post by michelp » Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:16 pm

An advice : use Layer 1 for the high notes on the staff, Layer 2 for the lower ones (Finale applies the default direction of the stems).
If needed, the Speedy, the L key can reverse it manually.
P.S. : there are too many beats in the right hand at the end of the measure. You should superimpose the 2 dotted half notes.
Last edited by michelp on Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Michel
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:18 pm

2. Is it ok to use only 2 layers?
Yes it looks like what you are wanting can be done with just layer 1 and 2. Remember don't confuse voices with layers. Voices reside inside a layer but layers are separate entities.
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Progman
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Post by Progman » Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:47 pm

Fixed the bar according to your suggestions, looks readable now:
Bar 4.jpg
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michelp
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Post by michelp » Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:55 pm

Left hand : align the notes on the first beat.
And at the end of the measure, some noteheads are superimposed (best), some juxtaposed.
Maybe respace and Update Layout.
Michel
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