Finale Forum

If there are just two layers sharing the same rhythm, you can add an extra, temporary staff, 'split from layers' to the extra staff and then 'merge' the contents of the two staves into the regular one.
With different rhythms, and with more than two layers, though, I fear it would be impossible or too complicated. Maybe someone else can help?

I encountered something strange.
When i change bar 100 time signature from 3/4 to 4/4 bar 102 turn to a mess :-/ How to make finale work as should? Maybe i change some setting by mistake which causes this?
Bar 100 before change: Bar 102 after change:

I can recommend the Finale manual. It's very useful, and time saving.

I suggest you turn on Automatic Update Layout in your Preferences. No reason to turn it off.

Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:58 pm

Time Signature.png

Works

@motet
Automatic update layout was already checked

Which example is more accepted professionally in terms of music writing for a piano piece? As a pianist, example 2 is faster to read for me so i tend to choose it but example 1 looks cleaner.

Ex. 2 is by far the more usual way to do it.
If you are concerned with readability, you might change the A# to Bb. When the music isn't atonal, pianists tend to think harmonies - here roughly A sus4, Gm, Dm.

Would you say Example 2 is more accepted here as well? Yes, its not really atonal. There are plenty of odd harmony combinations that are more common in modren dissonance classical music (20th century...) and jazz fusion... Would you say its better to omit any key signature? I'm not sure why i put E minor key signature to be honest, maybe because the piece starts with the note E and to save time not typing F# which are not an excuse for this decision. Anyway, E minor scale is not dominant in the piece. B minor scale is the most dominant but i'm not sure if i should label the piece with that key signature...

In this case ex. 1 definitely is the standard notation. (And perhaps 4/2?)

In free-tonal music the key generally is more or less ambiguous, which leaves the question of a key signature with or without accidentals rather open. Judging from just this example, it seems more logical to omit the F# in the KS.

A detail: shouldn't there be F natural in the right hand too?

Example 1 is more accepted here because both hands notes end together (two halves equals to one whole) so example 2 would not be faster to read, this is the excuse, right?
Here, example 2 is better because it is free of the dot, right? Or isn't this example better than both? In regard to the previous examples, F natural actually sounds fine as well but F# is intended, to express a stream of emotion. i leave it as F# for now and see how it sounds in the end. The structure of the piece is firm but here and there i change stuff so i may change that in the end as well. When you think a part is done a lot of times its not done...

IMO ex. 3 is the best one. You might flip the first tie D-D though. (It's misdirected because of the use of two layers. Finale's 'fault', not yours.)

6/4 and 8/4 are kind of hard to read. Why not halve all note values and use 6/8 and 4/4? Then you get the advantage of beaming.

Yeah, but wouldn't flipping the tie of the First D cuts the second D stem? looks better than misdirected ties but still a bit off. Maybe i'm just not used to it because its less common in classical music?

With ties between layers Finale doesn't know where to stop. You have to adjust the length of the tie with Special tools/Ties. Having it upwards here isn't an option.

Instead of a tie between Layer 1 and Layer 2, use something that works:
a tie between Voice 1 and Voice 2 of the same layer.

In this example only the initial quarter note is in Layer 2.
All other notes are in Layer 1.
The whole note is in Voice 1 (of Layer 1), whereas the two simultaneous quarters and one half are in Voice 2 (of Layer 1).

To use Voice 2 you must switch to the Speedy Entry Tool (= not possible in the Simple Entry Tool).
First, enter the whole note. This is Voice 1.
Then, move back onto the whole note, and hit the ' key. Now you are in Voice 2. Enter the two quarters and the half.

This is of course a very elegant solution. I haven't used voices very much, but when it happened, I had some problems knowing which voice was which, when trying to edit them. Is that a real problem or not?

Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑

Sun May 01, 2022 6:38 pm

… I haven't used voices very much, but when it happened, I had some problems knowing which voice was which, when trying to edit them. Is that a real problem or not?

I am afraid I do not understand.
Please be more specific:

a) When did you need to know “which voice was which” - and why did you need to know “which voice was which”?
What was the problem?
What were you trying to achieve?
How were you trying to do it?
What happened when you did that?
What did not happen that you expected to happen?

b) Did you edit with the Speedy Entry Tool, or with the Simple Entry Tool?

The better we understand, the better we can help.

If I'm supposed to edit a score which contains measures with two voices, I, not being used to that practice, have difficulties in identifying which voice is which. I feel much more confident with layers. Does that answer your questions?

And, needless to say, I use Speedy Entry all the time.

To try to explain my view of the layers vs. voices issue: When using layers I always know which is the top voice. In your example you assigned voice one to what is really the second voice in music writing terms. That I find confusing.

Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑

Sun May 01, 2022 7:38 pm

… When using layers I always know which is the top voice. In your example you assigned voice one to what is really the second voice in music writing terms. That I find confusing.

If I understand you correctly, there is not really a problem - right?

Finale does not care about which pitch is higher / lower.
You can put the higher pitch in Layer 1, the lower pitch in Layer 2.
But you can also put the higher pitch in Layer 2, the lower pitch in Layer 1.
Finale does not care.
I do understand that you find this confusing, but I suppose that it is not really a problem - right?

Sometimes two parts are crossing (not uncommon in choir music).

Similarly with voice 1 / Voice 2.
The higher pitch can be in Voice 1, or the higher pitch can be in Voice 2.
I do understand that you find this confusing, but I suppose that it is not really a problem - right?

If you need to edit a note, then you edit that note, no matter whether the note is in Layer 1, or Layer 2, or Voice 1, or Voice 2 - right?

If I misunderstand you, then I apologize.

There is this problem that when I look at the music given to me by someone else, I don't know which voice this or or that note is entered in. It doesn't show simply. I have no problems with choral, or other, voices crossing each other. With layers I find that easier to make clear: fx Soprano goes under the Alto, but S keeps the stems up all the time. Or, are we speaking at cross purpose?

I'm sorry to have to repeat myself, but in your example above you assigned the lower note (a whole note) to voice one, when logically it should have been in 'voice two'. How would I know when encountered with such an engraving how to tackle the note entered in voice one, when it clearly should have been in voice two?

Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑

Sun May 01, 2022 8:58 pm

… in your example above you assigned the lower note (a whole note) to voice one, when logically it should have been in 'voice two' …

I am afraid I do not understand.
Why should the lower note have been in Voice 2? Why is that logical?
What is the problem with having the lower note in Voice 1?
Finale does not care whether the lower note is in Voice 1 or Voice 2.

Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑

Sun May 01, 2022 8:58 pm

… How would I know when encountered with such an engraving how to tackle the note entered in voice one, when it clearly should have been in voice two?

While I do understand that you find this “confusing”, I do not understand why you find it “confusing”.
It is not clear to me why the lower note “clearly should have been in voice two”.
Does it matter for the Playback whether the lower note is in Voice 1 or Voice 2?
Does it matter for the Layout whether the lower note is in Voice 1 or Voice 2?

It just matters for me knowing what's what when editing something which I didn't do myself. I think I cannot make myself clearer than this. Sorry.

Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑

Sun May 01, 2022 9:59 pm

It just matters for me knowing what's what when editing something which I didn't do myself. I think I cannot make myself clearer than this. Sorry.

I sometimes feel a little unsure even when editing something which I have previously entered myself using voices, since I only use them occasionally. If there were a key one could press that would temporarily show notes in Voice 1 and Voice 2 each in its own colour, maybe that might help.