empty measure 4/2 time

[rjawad1]

in an empty measure in 4/2, Finale puts the rest for a whole note. i want it to use the rest for the double whole note. i can do it manually by inserting a double whole note and then turning it into a rest. but then the rest is not centered. how do i center the rest, or alternatively, how do i tell Finale to use the correct rest in an empty measure with 4/2 time?

[Bill Stevens]

If you are changing ALL whole rests then you can go to Document Options > Notes and Rests, choose the whole note rest character and change it. But that won't work if you have both whole and double whole note rests in your piece.

::: Bill

[Peter Thomsen]

… How do I tell Finale to use the correct rest in an empty measure with 4/2 time? …

Document menu > Document Options

Document Options - Notes & Rests

Rest Characters > Default Measure Rest
Click the button {Select…}, and choose character #227.

[rjawad1]

ya, it's not for the whole piece. one variation out of several. should i position each one manually?

[motet]

I would make an expression, with position defined as shown below. Define a metatool for it and you can create it with a single click in each measure. You'll need to define a staff style like the one shown to hide the default rests, applying it to your 4/2 section.

If you're going to make parts, these expressions will need to be hidden in the places in the parts where they would lie in multimeasure rests.

[rjawad1]

hmm. this is over my head. but thanks for taking the time to write that answer. i may come back to it, but there are only a few measures in the score that this pertains to.

[motet]

A whole rest stands for filling any empty measure, regardless of time signature, so doing nothing is an option, too.

[John Ruggero]

This is a glaring oversight in Finale, since a breve rest is standard as a whole measure rest in 4/2, since whole-note rests represent half a measure in 4/2 and are so used.

Arnold Arnstein did use the standard whole measure rest in 4/2, but as a consequence never used whole note rests in 4/2, but always replaced them with two half rests.

[BuonTempi]

A whole rest stands for filling any empty measure, regardless of time signature, so doing nothing is an option, too.

4/2 is the strong exception to the rule. There are thousands of pieces from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries with regions in 4/2, which have always been drawn with a breve rest.
These works often have changes to other metres, such as 3/2, so changing the global default rest is not an option.

Manually creating an expression, which must be applied to each bar; plus a staff style to hide the default rests; plus hiding the expressions in parts is a classic example both of "You can do anything in Finale" and "Dear God, this is insane".

[rjawad1]

interesting points. i had thought that someone would say that a whole rest works for any empty measure. somehow, it doesn't bother me for 5/4 or 3/4, but it does for 4/2.

[John Ruggero]

interesting points. i had thought that someone would say that a whole rest works for any empty measure. somehow, it doesn't bother me for 5/4 or 3/4, but it does for 4/2.

It bothers you because a single symbol, the whole-measure rest, is being used for two different durations in the same piece. Of course, this happens regularly when we use tuplets without numbers and brackets, but in that case the numbers and brackets are understood by the context, if not actually present.

Some might argue that it is even more obvious when a whole rest is used as a whole measure rest 4/2 since there is nothing else in the measure. But it is not the standard practice, and therefore quite an oversight in Finale. I will report it over at the appropriate website since I am curious so see if there will be any response.

[ttw]

I'll try this later but perhaps JW Rhythm Copy could change whole rests in empty 4/2 measures to breve rests. I used for note patterns but I didn't see a restriction to rests.

[ttw]

JW RHythm copy doesn't work as it needs at least 1 note. I'll look at the unfamiliar (to me) JW stuff and see if something simple can be done.

[ttw]

More research gave a way to re-set the default rest for empty measures. I thought to try this for 4/2. I couldn't get it to work. I don't know if dotted halves work for 3/2 and dotted wholes for 6/4 or the like.

It might be worth submitting an error report.

[motet]

This is a glaring oversight in Finale, since a breve rest is standard as a whole measure rest in 4/2, since whole-note rests represent half a measure in 4/2 and are so used.

Arnold Arnstein did use the standard whole measure rest in 4/2, but as a consequence never used whole note rests in 4/2, but always replaced them with two half rests.

I don't see the possibility of confusing whole measure rests and whole-note rests as a problem. Measures with whole-measures rests are, well, empty, and the rest is centered in the bar. Conversely, if you have a whole note and a whole rest in a 4/2 bar, I don't see how the latter half would look like an empty bar without a barline there. Did Arnstein do this with 3/2 or 6/4?

There's also this situation, where the same symbol could be used for two bars rest.

[John Ruggero]

I don't see the possibility of confusing whole measure rests and whole-note rests as a problem. Measures with whole-measures rests are, well, empty, and the rest is centered in the bar. Conversely, if you have a whole note and a whole rest in a 4/2 bar, I don't see how the latter half would look like an empty bar without a barline there. Did Arnstein do this with 3/2 or 6/4?

I don't see the problem either, but it's not the standard practice, so there we go.

Arnstein used the whole measure rest for ALL meters. As far as he was concerned, the note whole note rest didn't exist, and replaced them all with two half rests in 4/2 and 3/2. He wouldn't have used a whole note rest in 6/4 any more than he would have used a half note rest in 6/8.

This was all done to avoid any possible confusion in orchestral parts in high pressure rehearsals where every minute was on the meter, the rehearsal was over precisely when the second hand hit the 12 and overtime at time-and-a-half began, and a single mistake in a part or a question could be very costly.

[BuonTempi]

Like most of music notation, it's a convention that's endured and evolved over the centuries. There are countless inconsistencies, which we would revise if we were starting from scratch.

As has been said many times about various elements of notation: it's what people expect to see, and familiarity breeds sight-reading. I dare say I could cope with this:

Screenshot 6.png (3.3 KiB) Viewed 2341 times

... but I'd be tutting as I went along, and I'd rather see:

Screenshot 8.png (3.31 KiB) Viewed 2341 times

We don't use breve or 'exact' bar rests in 3/2 or 6/4, because a whole rest isn't used amongst notes. But 3/1 does use a breve (not dotted) as the bar rest, because you'd regularly use one or two whole-note rests within a bar. (And you wouldn't split those into minims.)

Your 2-bar's rest example has a whacking great 2 over it, which helps identify the duration somewhat.

[John Ruggero]

Good point. Not sure what Arnstein would have done with a 3/1 measure, since we never had one of those while I was with him, but I am sure he would have done the practical thing, as he always did, and use whole note rests in the case of meters with whole notes as a one beat.