Smart Shapes keep moving around by themselves

[strablonsky]

When I apply custom lines, if I zoom out, try to reposition them or basically do anything they jump around unpredictably.

I tried using Patterson Shape editor Plug-ins, doing it in Page View, Scroll view, resizing, opening a new file, everything I could think of. It's not always that this happens, but it does with a fair frequency (especially when doing more contemporary stuff). It's a nightmare.

Do you all have any ideas as to how to approach this? I tried uploading a GIF but couldn't, so here's a quick 12 second YouTube video: https://youtu.be/fvlCdIUMpgs

Finale 26.3
macOS Monterey 12.4

[Anders Hedelin]

I've encountered this in measures with independent time signatures on different staves. Unforunately I have no solution for this other than extreme patience. Maybe someone else has a better idea?

[motet]

If a staff with independent time signature is indeed at play, a work-around is to draw the shape in another staff that doesn't have independent time signatures and then copy the shape using the copy filter. If it's not independent time signatures, then I think we'd need to see the .musx file.

[motet]

In the video you can see the anchor point moving as you drag the shape around but it looks like the final anchor point is at the barline. Try anchoring it on the first beat of that measure, wherever that may be.

[strablonsky]

@motet Unfortunately, the problem persists regardless of where the anchor point is. There are also no independent time signatures or staff styles.

I tried using the staff above as a workaround and it did work. It's frustrating because it still doesn't solve the problem for part preparation, and any edit in staff spacing undoes all the work, but it works for now.

Really annoying to have a full score with these types of notation though!

[John Ruggero]

I seem to remember this when placing smart shapes in measures with very large meters like 100/4 that occupy a whole staff. It was as if there was a certain limit beyond which the smart shape would not continue to "stretch". Yet it seems to work fine now when I just tried it. So there are probably some other factors at play.

[Anders Hedelin]

In your short YouTube clip there's a glimpse of a lower staff with what looks like independent barlines. Now, that isn't really possible with Finale so you must have used a workaround. How did you do that? Even if that should be the culprit I'm not sure there's a simple solution. Finale can be quite prickly when you play with the definition of measures.

[motet]

I didn't mean attach it to the staff above and drag it down, which is indeed a poor solution. If you can attach your file--you need only include the section that's causing you trouble--someone can probably help.

[strablonsky]

Anders, those aren't actual independent barlines, they're faked with expressions, so the measures are untouched! It's actually only one measure of 4/4, spaced like that with hidden rests. So there's not even any manual tweaking besides the hidden rests and clever rebeaming to fake displaced notes.

However motet, I finally understood what you meant by "first beat". I attached the first point of the shape to the first beat of the bar, and the end point to the first beat of the subsequent bar. then I dragged the points holding the option key and it SEEMS to have worked! That is very much a better solution that the unpredictability I was facing. Thank you for that!

[Anders Hedelin]

Just one more thought: Finale can behave quite irrationally and unpredictably if you haven't selected 'Display Actual Measure Numbers' in the Preferences (View). I suspect that Finale's measure-centered way of working is hidden deep down in the code.

[wessmusic]

I would advise you to completely fill the problematic measure with hidden rests and see if this will lead to a positive change. Sometimes it helps.

[strablonsky]

Hey Wess! Nice seeing you here
The measure is already filled with hidden rests though!
Your friend, Piero.

[John Ruggero]

I just tried a 100/4 one-line measure without and with hidden rests and it works fine both ways. The various smart shapes find every beat on the line and can start and end at any point without moving around. So I would love to know under which conditions this issue arises, because I have also experienced it.

[Anders Hedelin]

So I would love to know under which conditions this issue arises, because I have also experienced it.

I've already pointed out one condition: the use of independent time signatures on different staves. The other one I know of is with overfilled measures as when you have applied Patterson's 'beam over barlines'. I can't tell you more than that.

[strablonsky]

So I would love to know under which conditions this issue arises, because I have also experienced it.

I've already pointed out one condition: the use of independent time signatures on different staves. The other one I know of is with overfilled measures as when you have applied Patterson's 'beam over barlines'. I can't tell you more than that.

Unfortunately, neither applies here. Same time signature, not one overfilled measure and there's not any beam over barlines shenanigans happening here. This has also happened before and I'm not sure what causes it.

[Anders Hedelin]

Ok, I'm not that surprised. There are more 'conditions' then.

[Anders Hedelin]

Just a thought: Since dynamic hairpins are always beat attached (you can't choose them to be note attached, as opposed to slurs fx), they are dependent on the structure of the measure, with so and so many beats. Maybe someone else with more understanding of programming could clarify the connection between measure/beats and smart shapes, and what could happen if you would go outside the box?

A question to strablonsky: Have you selected Display Actual Measure Numbers?
The thing is that if you haven't, it might happen that Finale mistakes a measure for another, so problems in an earlier measure might 'spill over' into the one you are seeing.

[strablonsky]

A question to strablonsky: Have you selected Display Actual Measure Numbers?
The thing is that if you haven't, it might happen that Finale mistakes a measure for another, so problems in an earlier measure might 'spill over' into the one you are seeing.

Yes! I know Finale gets finicky if it isn't checked.

[motet]

The actual/defined measure number thing is only a problem with multiple measure number regions combined the unchecking "include in measure numbering" for some measures. I avoid the latter, have multiple regions and use "display defined" without a problem. Not likely to be an issue here.

[Anders Hedelin]

Not likely to be an issue here.

How can you be so sure? We haven't seen the rest of the composition.

Edit: Ok, it's unlikely because strablonsky told us he has 'display actual measure numbers' checked. If he hadn't, well that would be as likely an issue as anything else.

[John Ruggero]

From what I recall the problem occurred in a very simple situation: all quarter notes and nothing else in the measure. Octave sign toward the end of the approximately 80/4 measure occupying one complete line. The end point of the octave continuation line wouldn't drag to end of the measure without snapping back to an earlier position or jumping past the end point. I think I solved it by subdividing the measure into two. Maybe its particular meters that are affected?

[Peter Thomsen]

… the approximately 80/4 measure … I think I solved it by subdividing the measure into two. Maybe its particular meters that are affected?

If I Recall Correctly, there is a bug that only occurs in time signatures of 8/1 (32/4) or more.

As a test, try changing the time signature to something smaller than 8/1 (32/4).
Do not Rebar, but choose Measure Attributes to Position Notes {Evenly Across Measure}.

[motet]

Not likely to be an issue here.

How can you be so sure? We haven't seen the rest of the composition.

Edit: Ok, it's unlikely because strablonsky told us he has 'display actual measure numbers' checked. If he hadn't, well that would be as likely an issue as anything else.

The manifestation of the "display defined measure numbers" bug occurs when you double-click on a measure to evoke some tool on that measure. Finale somehow miscounts which measure you want if there are multiple regions and "include in measure numbering" is unchecked somewhere, and picks the wrong measure. I avoid unchecking "include in measure numbering" (instead using more regions and leaving the unnumbered measure out of any region, use defined measure numbers, and all is fine.

[John Ruggero]

If I Recall Correctly, there is a bug that only occurs in time signatures of 8/1 (32/4) or more.

As a test, try changing the time signature to something smaller than 8/1 (32/4).
Do not Rebar, but choose Measure Attributes to Position Notes {Evenly Across Measure}.

Thanks, Peter. I was talking about a bug that happened years ago. I seems to work just fine now at 100/4. So I am not sure what might be causing the OP's problem, but it would be interesting to determine. Perhaps it is individual meters that cause a problem if anyone wants to go through them all to see.

Don't think it had anything to do with the assignment of measure numbers, because what I was doing back then didn't use measure numbers or regions. Very simple example, just umpteen quarter notes in one measure with an octave sign that had trouble making it to the end of the line without jumping around.