Horn in C

[sschimel]

I'm setting up the score for Les Contes d'Hoffmann and it calls for Horns in C in addition to Horns in F. I see the latter but I don't see the former and I'm wondering if there's a way to change both the name and transposition of a Horn in F to C. Also, the Prelude is in A Flat Major but the Horn in F has a key signature of E Flat in the Finale score and C in the printed score.

[mmike]

You can change the name and transposition easily in the ScoreManager.

As for

the Horn in F has a key signature of E Flat in the Finale score and C in the printed score.

- In the Document Menu I would choose Edit Score / Display in Concert Pitch

[sschimel]

Well, I'm just stupid. And tired. Seeing as how late it is here in Tel Aviv is it any wonder that I didn't notice that the key of the prelude isn't A Flat Major but F Minor?

[motet]

For Horn in C you need to set the transposition to "Up Octave" in the Score Manager. But if you're making a performing edition, do everyone a favor and put the Horn parts entirely in F.

[motet]

If you're talking about the entire opera, the horns are in many keys; C, D, E-flat, E, F, G, A-flat, A, and B-flat.

the Horn in F has a key signature of E Flat in the Finale score and C in the printed score.

It was common to write horn parts without key signatures, instead writing sharps or flats as "accidentals." It's in fact still done today, and many professionals prefer it. In Finale you can try checking "Hide key signature and show all accidentals" in the Score Manager.

[RMK]

For Horn in C you need to set the transposition to "Up Octave" in the Score Manager. But if you're making a performing edition, do everyone a favor and put the Horn parts entirely in F.

As an orchestral librarian for over 25 years, I disagree with this recommendation. Generally, our horn (and trumpet) players preferred to play from parts that were not transposed, especially in the Classical and (early) Romantic literature.

I suppose you may have a point if talking about Puccini or R. Strauss.

[David Ward]

For Horn in C you need to set the transposition to "Up Octave" in the Score Manager. But if you're making a performing edition, do everyone a favor and put the Horn parts entirely in F.

As an orchestral librarian for over 25 years, I disagree with this recommendation. Generally, our horn (and trumpet) players preferred to play from parts that were not transposed, especially in the Classical and (early) Romantic literature.

I suppose you may have a point if talking about Puccini or R. Strauss.

Does anyone prefer to play Lohengrin with the original horn transpositions? At one point in the prelude to Act III there is a phrase transposing for Horns in G followed without a rest by two phrases for Horns in E and then it goes immediately to Horns in D. This is because Wagner had not yet worked out how best to notate for valve horns. (I think he was treating the valves as would-be crooks.) The Wagner tuba (an instrument played by horn players) parts in the Ring seem to have less than rational transpositions, as indeed do those in Die Frau ohne Schatten. I think the orchestra librarian usually recopies these to transpose as for Horn in F.

I am not a horn player (my professional instrument was bass trombone), but I think one approach might be to leave parts written for natural horn as they are, but to recopy valve horn parts for Horn in F when the opportunity arises.

And then of course there is the question of the direction of transposition when in the bass clef… (All contemporary writing should now transpose down a fifth in both clefs.)

[motet]

For Horn in C you need to set the transposition to "Up Octave" in the Score Manager. But if you're making a performing edition, do everyone a favor and put the Horn parts entirely in F.

As an orchestral librarian for over 25 years, I disagree with this recommendation. Generally, our horn (and trumpet) players preferred to play from parts that were not transposed, especially in the Classical and (early) Romantic literature.

I suppose you may have a point if talking about Puccini or R. Strauss.

You have a point about classical pieces, where horn parts are bugle-like and thus easy to transpose. On the other hand, putting them in F doesn't make them harder to play, so it's more an aesthetic preference.

As a horn player, I have no problem with transposing, but in opera, remembering what key the part is in after transposing from nine different keys (like in Tales of Hoffmann) over the course of 2 or 3 hours can be a hazard, so there's that.

(Puccini's horn parts, as far as I know, are always in F throughout.)

[Anders Hedelin]

... if you're making a performing edition, do everyone a favor and put the Horn parts entirely in F.

That's such an obvious advice that I wonder why not.

[RMK]

(Puccini's horn parts, as far as I know, are always in F throughout.)

Well, not always:

https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... Horn_1.pdf

[Anders Hedelin]

(Puccini's horn parts, as far as I know, are always in F throughout.)

Well, not always:

https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... Horn_1.pdf

What's the point in keeping old transpositions in editions meant for performance? Intonation? - well hardly. Nostalgia? - well there's that.

[Gareth Green]

(Puccini's horn parts, as far as I know, are always in F throughout.)

Well, not always:

https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... Horn_1.pdf

What's the point in keeping old transpositions in editions meant for performance? Intonation? - well hardly. Nostalgia? - well there's that.

It's more than that; can't speak for horn players, but as a trumpet player with much the same issue, I have spent years familiarising myself with trumpet parts from standard repertoire in the original transpositions. It is disconcerting, to say the least, to suddenly be faced with a version in a different transposition. Also bear in mind that professional trumpet players routinely use modern trumpets pitched in different keys. Let's say there's a piece with an original part for trumpet in F (very common in late-19th/early 20th century repertoire). I am not going to appreciate suddenly finding a new performing edition with a part transposed for trumpet in Bb if I have elected to play the part on a 'C' trumpet ...

Transposed parts in heritage repertoire are best left alone. It's what we are used to, and professional horn/trumpet players are not fazed by them

[motet]

That's a good point, but horns don't have the issue of the instruments they're playing on being in different keys, or switching instruments in a piece.

[Gareth Green]

That's a good point, but horns don't have the issue of the instruments they're playing on being in different keys, or switching instruments in a piece.

I get that, but my point about players having familiarised themselves with reading standard repertoire in the original transposition still stands, I think. There used to be a standing joke about a certain well-known orchestral trumpet player in the UK (we're going back 40 years or so) who was so accustomed to transposing parts at sight that he struggled to play a Bb trumpet part on a Bb instrument ...

[motet]

Trumpeters are certainly the star transposers among instrumentalists.

I once played horn in a reduced arrangement of Falstaff in which the arranger added notes from missing instruments to the horn parts but left them in the original transpositions. The problem with this is that what horn players are used to transposing are parts which were restricted to a subset of notes which were possible on a valveless horn. When this arranger added lines from a missing bassoon, say, it resulted in notes with sharps and flats that horns are not used to transposing, which was especially tricky in rapid passages. We coped, but it would have been better if everything had been rewritten for F horn. Indeed, when I make such an arrangement, that's what I do. If you're just making a new edition, as opposed to rearranging, then your point certainly has merit.

For trumpet, when making such an arrangement I usually write everything for C trumpet, which minimizes the gnarly keys you would have with a Bb trumpet. It also aids the not-quite-top-tier players, I think. Would you say that's a reasonable approach?

[Gareth Green]

Trumpeters are certainly the star transposers among instrumentalists.

I once played horn in a reduced arrangement of Falstaff in which the arranger added notes from missing instruments to the horn parts but left them in the original transpositions. The problem with this is that what horn players are used to transposing are parts which were restricted to a subset of notes which were possible on a valveless horn. When this arranger added lines from a missing bassoon, say, it resulted in notes with sharps and flats that horns are not used to transposing, which was especially tricky in rapid passages. We coped, but it would have been better if everything had been rewritten for F horn. Indeed, when I make such an arrangement, that's what I do. If you're just making a new edition, as opposed to rearranging, then your point certainly has merit.

For trumpet, when making such an arrangement I usually write everything for C trumpet, which minimizes the gnarly keys you would have with a Bb trumpet. It also aids the not-quite-top-tier players, I think. Would you say that's a reasonable approach?

I think it depends where in the world you are. It's probably a sound approach in the US, but here in the UK the use of 'C' trumpets is less common, It's gradually becoming more prevalent, but it's a slow process ... as for the rest of Europe, I'm not sure; 'C' trumpets are certainly quite common in France, but I think less so in other European countries ...