best method for exporting as .pdf's?

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bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:06 pm

There was a big discussion of this previously, but it was complex, and I want to just cut to the chase: I find that even after careful proofreading/editing, when I export to PDF, there will be lots of problems: hairpins are squished or too long, collisions, and this is, again, AFTER carefully getting everything just right. What do pro engravers do to avoid endless proofing of PDF's; which involves making things "wrong" in Finale, to get it "right" in the PDF?? (example: a hairpin is perfect in Finale, squished in PDF, so I have to reduce the hairpin size in Finale (where it doesn't look "right"). Hoping there's a simple "do it this way and you won't have any problems."

Here's a typical example:
hairpins on finale.png
hairpins pdf.jpg
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miker
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Post by miker » Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:54 pm

I use the graphics tool. No problems, ever.
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bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:03 pm

Well that is great news. Please tell me what the graphics tool is. Forgive my ignorance.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:47 pm

Under the, uh, Tool menu.
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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:02 pm

The Graphics tool export works much better than File/Export/PDF, but on Windows the Graphics tool export sometimes has subtle errors in the placement of text (these apparently don't happen on the Mac). For problem-free PDFs on Windows, use CutePDF (free).

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miker
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Post by miker » Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:05 pm

As N said, it’s in the tools menu, and the Main Tool palette. Click on Export… and set the type as PDF. (I’m working from memory here, so my instructions may have skipped a step. You can figure it out!)

When I was on Windows, I used CutePDF as well.
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AnneMillington
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Post by AnneMillington » Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:51 pm

I have used the File>Export>PDF dialog in Windows 10 from Finale 27 to Adobe Acrobat with very little loss of information, for what it's worth. This is mostly for rehearsal parts, so my expectations might not be sufficiently exacting.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:45 am

Rehearsal parts with "very little loss of information". Doesn't sound acceptable to me.
N. Grossingink
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Post by AnneMillington » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:42 pm

N Grossingink wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:45 am
Rehearsal parts with "very little loss of information". Doesn't sound acceptable to me.
Let me 'splain: as long as my input is clean, this workflow produces parts with pretty much all the notes and text in place, and subsequently fully editable in Finale. That is all I need for rehearsal parts, and I was pretty happy to achieve that. Some products I tried failed spectacularly. What I have not worried about is whether every element such as line thickness or nuance of font graphic presentation is preserved, or if playback is faithful. That would be later in the game, I suspect.

The level of complexity is a factor too. I have been importing piano scores or choral/keyboard music and applying only a few operations beyond general formatting, such as exploding/imploding, transposition, voicing, etc., to obtain string orchestra parts. The fact that the resulting parts are easily edited in Finale is huge to me. So yes, totally acceptable.

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Post by bj nick » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:24 pm

N Grossingink wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:47 pm
Under the, uh, Tool menu.
I can.....uh....find the tool menu, thanks. :-) Actually it's under "Advanced tools," but no matter.....the thing is, clicking on Graphics, "nothing happens".....that is, I don't get a menu or window or anything. Plus I've never heard anyone mention this, ever, so it's really new to me. I will explore it, definitely. It can't be normal that it should be an endless, laborious process to get the parts proofread/edited, and THEN have to clear up a bunch of things on the PDF copies, even having to render parts "wrong" on Finale to get them looking right on PDF. I can't be doing it right.
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elbsound
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Post by elbsound » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:41 pm

BTW, if you use my Perfect Layout plug-in, you won't run into this old Finale "Hairpin/PDF" issue.

The plug-in automatically detects those hairpins where Finale has printing problems and adjusts them, so that they print correctly.
See FAQ: https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/ ... -hairpins1

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Post by bj nick » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:44 pm

AnneMillington wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:42 pm
N Grossingink wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:45 am
Rehearsal parts with "very little loss of information". Doesn't sound acceptable to me.
The level of complexity is a factor too. I have been importing piano scores or choral/keyboard music and applying only a few operations beyond general formatting, such as exploding/imploding, transposition, voicing, etc., to obtain string orchestra parts. The fact that the resulting parts are easily edited in Finale is huge to me. So yes, totally acceptable.
Hey Anne, that sounds great. For me, though, I need the parts PERFECT; as in: someone purchases the piece from me, downloads the parts, the players put them on the stands, everything's just as it should be. If I get people asking, hey, the oboe part is missing a bar here; can you check this one passage, something doesn't sound right, etc, etc. I'm dead. I've played a zillion rehearsals/gigs where we're reading something down, and if there are mistakes/confusion w/the parts, it's a massive pain. I've had situations where I've gone home and personally re-written all the horn parts to avoid train wrecks on an important gig. So for me, I'm hoping to learn how to get things nailed so I can totally trust the parts I send out; if I have to, I'll even hire a pro to do it; too important to risk it.
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dtoub
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Post by dtoub » Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:04 pm

bj nick wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:24 pm
N Grossingink wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:47 pm
Under the, uh, Tool menu.
I can.....uh....find the tool menu, thanks. :-) Actually it's under "Advanced tools," but no matter.....the thing is, clicking on Graphics, "nothing happens".....that is, I don't get a menu or window or anything. Plus I've never heard anyone mention this, ever, so it's really new to me. I will explore it, definitely. It can't be normal that it should be an endless, laborious process to get the parts proofread/edited, and THEN have to clear up a bunch of things on the PDF copies, even having to render parts "wrong" on Finale to get them looking right on PDF. I can't be doing it right.
Here are some screen shots:
Screen Shot 2022-07-18 at 10.57.58 AM.png
Screen Shot 2022-07-18 at 10.58.07 AM.png
Screen Shot 2022-07-18 at 10.58.07 AM.png (27.14 KiB) Viewed 3082 times
I always have to remind myself that clicking the Graphics Tool doesn't actually generate a window, so I have to go to the menubar to work with it. But after having done a lot of "Print" then "Save as PDF" and getting a pretty large file, the Graphics Tool is just so much better. I don't print anything so my needs are very different and minimal from many people here. But to save as a PDF and post it on my web site, the Graphics Tool has worked well, and it doesn't append SCORE to the file (which I prefer).
http://dbtmusic.wordpress.com

https://dtoub.bandcamp.com/

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AnneMillington
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Post by AnneMillington » Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:17 pm

bj nick wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:44 pm
For me, though, I need the parts PERFECT; as in: someone purchases the piece from me, downloads the parts, the players put them on the stands, everything's just as it should be. I
I have the same need for accurate exported parts. I am pretty sure you can achieve that result with the tools at hand.

The export component of my workflow is quite acceptable. I use Finale 27, the File > Export > PDF command, and Bob's Yer Uncle. There are no mistakes, unless I made them myself in Finale. Sometimes I will print directly to a pdf, by having Adobe PDF specified as my printer, and really see no difference.

Maybe it is because I am using 27?

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:31 pm

The PDF problems don't happen with every file.

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Post by AnneMillington » Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:43 pm

motet wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:31 pm
The PDF problems don't happen with every file.
So helpful when troubleshooting, eh?

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elbsound
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Post by elbsound » Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:48 pm

The PDF problems don't happen with every file.
Yes, but the hairpin/PDF problem could occur with any file.
It depends on the length of the hairpin and the hairpin settings (opening width, line thickness).
Only if the "dangerous" hairpin lengths occur in that file, this issue will come up.

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:53 pm

From the O.P.'s picture, it looks like the dynamics are misplaced, not the hairpins. But there have been lots of problems reported here with File/Export/PDF over the years, including stray and wrong characters. Printing to a PDF virtual printer seems to take care of them.

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Post by AnneMillington » Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:08 pm

The export as graphic is what I would use if I wanted absolutely faithful reproduction of all of the glyphs in my document. I would be surprised if the OP would have the described issues with exporting to jpg or tiff.

I am late to the table in embracing pdfs, for just the reasons we are discussing. Your stuff gets messed with in pdf. But the format is ever so much better than in the olden days, and improving all the time. Most of the people I know want a pdf for importing into their own software or readers, or for printing in a controlled, consistent way. The user has to be both savvy and vigilant to do that with graphic formats.

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:20 pm

I'm not sure why you're arguing with this. File/Export/PDF has problems, but not every time. If it works for you, great.

The Graphics tool can create a PDF file (not just graphics formats like jpeg or tiff), just as File/Export/PDF can, but must use different code because it works better. As I said, there are some problems even with that on Windows, which is why I suggest a PDF printer instead, which is flawless. The Graphics tool export seems to not have those problems on the Mac.

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Post by AnneMillington » Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:23 pm

Not arguing, just offering my experience to round out the conversation.

I do like exporting to a virtual printer; I have found that to work really well. I will try exporting to pdf via graphics tool. I did not even know that existed.

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:45 pm

bj nick wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:24 pm
...clicking on Graphics, "nothing happens".....that is, I don't get a menu or window or anything.
Look again.
Attachments
Image1.png

bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:58 pm

motet wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:53 pm
From the O.P.'s picture, it looks like the dynamics are misplaced, not the hairpins. But there have been lots of problems reported here with File/Export/PDF over the years, including stray and wrong characters. Printing to a PDF virtual printer seems to take care of them.
That's a good point; the dynamics, not the hairpins....but my efforts have generally been to reduce/adjust the hairpins due to the collisions.
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:35 pm

Get CutePDF and be done with it.

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Post by bj nick » Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:33 pm

I have always used Adobe; CUTE is better? Free version or do I need to get a paid version? And you're saying that's it? As in, just make CUTE the default PDF program, and just export - PDF? Lots going on here, different takes, trying to figure out get the best way to go, sorry for the basic questions.
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