problem with duration

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scorn
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Post by scorn » Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:32 pm

hi there
i played the moonlight sonata a 1000 times , especially the last movement
and there is a moment when beethoven wrote that
there is only one voice here and though there are 4 notes in 32nd notes and they are all assisted by 4 notes that have all a different duration
how can you do that with finale?
i tried to write over each note a second note with a tie , like the image
finale doesn't want that
thanks
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miker
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Post by miker » Sat Jul 23, 2022 6:54 pm

You’re right; Finale doesn’t do that. The closest you can come is by entering a normal tie, and using Special Tools > Tie tool to adjust it. Playback won’t be correct, but the notation will match.
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scorn
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Post by scorn » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:08 pm

ok thanks for the reply
this is for the tie
but what about the note?
you can enter a eight note over a 32nd note
it's impossible then .. right?

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:37 pm

There are actually five voices in each hand, so you have to use a different layer for each of the notes that are double stemmed. Then the ties have to be adjusted to reach the 5-note chord if it is placed in layer one. The first example shows the layers with all the rests that have to be hidden to produce the result seen in the second example.
Beethoven ex .png
Beethoven ex 2.png
Last edited by John Ruggero on Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:45 pm

The four beamed 32nds occupy the space of an eighth. The flagged notes add up to ten 32nds, so you'd have to make a tuplet in Finale, then line up the noteheads with the Note Position tool and move the augmentation dot with the Dot tool. Hide the number and bracket of course.
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Last edited by motet on Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by miker » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:45 pm

You go, John!

And motet!
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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:59 pm

Perhaps one would use feathered beams today to get that effect.

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Post by motet » Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:09 pm

I think this is easier: 3 1-lets ("singlets"?). That way, no note moving. You do have to move the dot, though.
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:36 pm

They are just rolled chords written-out as groups of 4 even 32nd notes. The flagged notes show that they are held through each other after rolling them to form the 5-note quarter note chords. Beethoven wanted the roll to be precisely measured, so he wrote them as 32nd notes.
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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:13 am

Ah, got it, and understand now about the rests.

scorn
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Post by scorn » Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:33 am

ok thanks for all your replies
in the end what solution is the better here?
i guess with all the replies , john's is the better right?
on the other hand making several layers is always something that i try to avoid
but if it's the best way to go , then i'll go for it..
(lucky beethoven who didn't have to write his symphonies with finale ..lol)

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wessmusic
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Post by wessmusic » Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:11 pm

John Ruggero wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:37 pm
There are actually five voices in each hand, so you have to use a different layer for each of the notes that are double stemmed. Then the ties have to be adjusted to reach the 5-note chord if it is placed in layer one.
...
Hi John,
Your example seems absolutely brilliant and convincing as an approach.

I would suggest something similar, but a little simpler.
The edition I have as a reference is by Peters from 1981, and the font (incl. piano brace as a part of it) I use is in that style.
The size of the staves (width and height) are identical to the original.

Unlike you, instead of layers (2, 3 and 4), I only use V2 on layer 1.
(For illustration purposes only, I have placed whole rests above both staves, for layer 2, 3 and 4, in order to ignore such an assumption, especially since V2 is not colored, unlike the layers themselves.)

Image

The approach to entering notes is as follows:
Initially, all notes of V1 are entered (by default, as 1/32 groups with stems down).
Then the cursor (speedy entry) is placed over the first "duplicated note" and switched to V2. Enter the note and switch to V1 again. A cursor is placed on the second note. Only then does it switch back to V2 and write dotted 1/16. And so the process is repeated many times until the end.

Both your way and mine, the result is equally good. But still, I think the above approach saves a negligible amount of time.
Indeed, in this example there are a number of more significant difficulties to overcome than duplication.

First of all, the correct judgment of the shape of the ties.
Then overcoming the dotted 1/16, whose flag causes problems with the augmentation dot (since in this particular font, whose flags, like those of Edition Peters, are relatively narrow). In this example I'm using an alternate 1/16 flag, but a fake dot with a white mask underneath could also be used to hide the lowest part of the flag that it would otherwise stand for. In fact, Maestro's flags provide enough space to accommodate the dot, but their width creates a problem with music spacing.

The only change I've made to the top staff on the last measure is that I'm using a 4 line staff, with the bottom line added to avoid overstepping the beam at 1/32 group. This is not noticeable at first glance, but in my humble opinion, it gives a good visual result, especially since it is allowed in the program.
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:00 pm

Thanks, Wess. There was a further complication that I didn't mention in that Finale provides only 4 layers in each staff, so, a layer from one staff has to be used in the other staff where required.

So I think your way is much easier and I would recommend it to the OP. I might have used it if I used voices, but I never use voices, only layers. :(
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Post by wessmusic » Sun Jul 24, 2022 11:30 pm

John, using voicеs is by no means trouble-free, especially when material needs to be copied afterwards. I have noticed that flags and grouping issues sometimes occur.
In this particular case, however, their purposeful use gives a good end result.
The variant with tuplets on an adjacent layer, which Motet offers, is also not to be neglected, because the execution time I assume is almost the same.
I hope the colleague who opened the topic will share what he thinks is most practical. What is undeniable, however, is that all of Beethoven's sonatas are difficult, especially if they are to be performed with absolute graphic precision. Despite the many different editions, they are very well known to everyone, and this in itself gives rise to high requirements in terms of engraving.
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:10 am

It seems like with the ties originating on the noteheads as in John's picture, if not the O.P.'s, the stems and flags are redundant and could be omitted.

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Post by John Ruggero » Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:35 pm

Wess, for some reason, I have a blind spot when it comes to "voices", and shy away from them. This spot was therefore particularly challenging when I engraved it. Yes, having now engraved the Beethoven Sonatas for my edition, I heartedly agree that it is some of the most difficult piano music to edit and engrave, which is one reason I did it.

Motet,I agree the present-day notation without all the flagged notes is simpler, clearer and therefore superior. The 19th century edition of Hans von Bulow, which takes all kinds of liberties with the text, actually did simplify this spot in this way. However, I don't know of another edition that has done it and the tendency now is to make editions more faithful to the original than in the past-- and with good reason. Once the changes start, there is no end to them, and the end result is very different from what the composer intended.
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