Outgoing Key Signature Question
Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker
I am trying to change from E minor to E major and would expect the signature to just add sharps and not cancel the f#. Same issue going from E major to E minor. It cancels all the sharps then adds the F# back in. If I uncheck "cancel outgoing key signature" I do not get any natural signs. I also cannot remove just the extra natural. How can I correct this?
- John Ruggero
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You've just uncovered a Finale weirdness that I have never noticed before. The solution is to stay with major keys, that is, go from E major to G major, not E minor, and you will get the normal behavior you expect.
I never use the "minor key" setting at all and just stay with major keys, so the problem has never arisen for me.
But this is definitely a bug in the program. I tried it in both Finale 25 and Finale 27 with the same result. Fortunately it is easily corrected as explained above.
I never use the "minor key" setting at all and just stay with major keys, so the problem has never arisen for me.
But this is definitely a bug in the program. I tried it in both Finale 25 and Finale 27 with the same result. Fortunately it is easily corrected as explained above.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."
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- motet
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Even dumber, here's B minor to D major.
A minor to C major or vice-versa results in a double bar.
I too always use major. Were it not for this behavior, specifying minor can be useful for resolving enharmonic spelling with MIDI input, which can be different depending on mode. Finale even lets you define your own enharmonic spelling tables for major and minor.
If you turn off "cancel outgoing key signature" I guess these problems mostly go away, but I like having the cancelling naturals.
A minor to C major or vice-versa results in a double bar.
I too always use major. Were it not for this behavior, specifying minor can be useful for resolving enharmonic spelling with MIDI input, which can be different depending on mode. Finale even lets you define your own enharmonic spelling tables for major and minor.
If you turn off "cancel outgoing key signature" I guess these problems mostly go away, but I like having the cancelling naturals.
- ebiggs1
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I too always use major.
Ditto!I never use the "minor key" setting at all and just stay with major keys, ...
Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.
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You can turn off this behaviour in the options for the key signaturesmotet wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:55 amEven dumber, here's B minor to D major.
0315.png
A minor to C major or vice-versa results in a double bar.
0316.png
I too always use major. Were it not for this behavior, specifying minor can be useful for resolving enharmonic spelling with MIDI input, which can be different depending on mode. Finale even lets you define your own enharmonic spelling tables for major and minor.
If you turn off "cancel outgoing key signature" I guess these problems mostly go away, but I like having the cancelling naturals.
Finale 2009 and 27/German on Windows 10
- RimasG
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- Operating System: Windows
The cancellation of the alteration by changing the key in our Finale is not really adequate. It is strange when changing to a unary (parallel) key results in completely illogical naturals and repeated accidentals. If this is systematic, it is even more strange when we change the sharp key to the flat key and vice versa. So after the key change, which would be quite logical, there are no naturals, canceled former sharps or flats.
These problems are very important for engravers who want the text to be accurate and true to the original. However, I have heard that it has been officially decided, in the latest rules for writing musical text, that it is no longer necessary to show the acidentals of the former key when changing the key. This is logical and convenient, both graphically and visually, because the music text is already full of all sorts of extra marks and remarks. However, in this case too Finale is wrong, because it does not really follow any system. This is something that the developers of the programme should finally address.
These problems are very important for engravers who want the text to be accurate and true to the original. However, I have heard that it has been officially decided, in the latest rules for writing musical text, that it is no longer necessary to show the acidentals of the former key when changing the key. This is logical and convenient, both graphically and visually, because the music text is already full of all sorts of extra marks and remarks. However, in this case too Finale is wrong, because it does not really follow any system. This is something that the developers of the programme should finally address.
Win11 64bit, Fin27.3, TGTools pro,
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Casio CDP-200R
Perfect Layout Silver, Transcribe,
Casio CDP-200R
- motet
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As I said in the last line you quoted. But I want the key cancellations.Peter S. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:55 amYou can turn off this behaviour in the options for the key signaturesmotet wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:55 amEven dumber, here's B minor to D major.
0315.png
A minor to C major or vice-versa results in a double bar.
0316.png
I too always use major. Were it not for this behavior, specifying minor can be useful for resolving enharmonic spelling with MIDI input, which can be different depending on mode. Finale even lets you define your own enharmonic spelling tables for major and minor.
If you turn off "cancel outgoing key signature" I guess these problems mostly go away, but I like having the cancelling naturals.
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Do these settings get you closer to what you want?
http://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Fina ... Signatures
http://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Fina ... Signatures
Finale 25, 26, 27, Patterson Plug-ins, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Perfect Layout Gold, Keyboard Maestro, Adobe CS6 - CC, MacOS Mojave through Monterey. NotePerformer 3, Dorico 4, Sibelius Ultimate.
- John Ruggero
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For what it's worth, Arnold Arnstein had decided the same thing and was no longer canceling key signatures in the 1970s and probably long before that with no complaints from anyone. He did insist on a double bar for all key changes.
However, I prefer the older style, but have come to dislike the double bar as too disruptive.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com
"The better the composer, the better the notation."
www.cantilenapress.com
"The better the composer, the better the notation."