Outgoing Key Signature Question

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myztique
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Post by myztique » Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:05 am

I am trying to change from E minor to E major and would expect the signature to just add sharps and not cancel the f#. Same issue going from E major to E minor. It cancels all the sharps then adds the F# back in. If I uncheck "cancel outgoing key signature" I do not get any natural signs. I also cannot remove just the extra natural. How can I correct this?
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Screen Shot 2023-03-09 at 7.36.19 PM.png
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:09 am

You've just uncovered a Finale weirdness that I have never noticed before. The solution is to stay with major keys, that is, go from E major to G major, not E minor, and you will get the normal behavior you expect.

I never use the "minor key" setting at all and just stay with major keys, so the problem has never arisen for me.

But this is definitely a bug in the program. I tried it in both Finale 25 and Finale 27 with the same result. Fortunately it is easily corrected as explained above.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:55 am

Even dumber, here's B minor to D major.
0315.png
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A minor to C major or vice-versa results in a double bar.
0316.png
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I too always use major. Were it not for this behavior, specifying minor can be useful for resolving enharmonic spelling with MIDI input, which can be different depending on mode. Finale even lets you define your own enharmonic spelling tables for major and minor.

If you turn off "cancel outgoing key signature" I guess these problems mostly go away, but I like having the cancelling naturals.

myztique
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Post by myztique » Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:24 am

Thank you.

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:13 pm

I too always use major.
I never use the "minor key" setting at all and just stay with major keys, ...
Ditto! :)
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Peter S.
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Post by Peter S. » Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:55 am

motet wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:55 am
Even dumber, here's B minor to D major.

0315.png

A minor to C major or vice-versa results in a double bar.

0316.png

I too always use major. Were it not for this behavior, specifying minor can be useful for resolving enharmonic spelling with MIDI input, which can be different depending on mode. Finale even lets you define your own enharmonic spelling tables for major and minor.

If you turn off "cancel outgoing key signature" I guess these problems mostly go away, but I like having the cancelling naturals.
You can turn off this behaviour in the options for the key signatures
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RimasG
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Post by RimasG » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:53 am

The cancellation of the alteration by changing the key in our Finale is not really adequate. It is strange when changing to a unary (parallel) key results in completely illogical naturals and repeated accidentals. If this is systematic, it is even more strange when we change the sharp key to the flat key and vice versa. So after the key change, which would be quite logical, there are no naturals, canceled former sharps or flats.
These problems are very important for engravers who want the text to be accurate and true to the original. However, I have heard that it has been officially decided, in the latest rules for writing musical text, that it is no longer necessary to show the acidentals of the former key when changing the key. This is logical and convenient, both graphically and visually, because the music text is already full of all sorts of extra marks and remarks. However, in this case too Finale is wrong, because it does not really follow any system. This is something that the developers of the programme should finally address.
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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:57 pm

Peter S. wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:55 am
motet wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:55 am
Even dumber, here's B minor to D major.

0315.png

A minor to C major or vice-versa results in a double bar.

0316.png

I too always use major. Were it not for this behavior, specifying minor can be useful for resolving enharmonic spelling with MIDI input, which can be different depending on mode. Finale even lets you define your own enharmonic spelling tables for major and minor.

If you turn off "cancel outgoing key signature" I guess these problems mostly go away, but I like having the cancelling naturals.
You can turn off this behaviour in the options for the key signatures
As I said in the last line you quoted. But I want the key cancellations.

bakkumd
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Post by bakkumd » Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:59 pm

Do these settings get you closer to what you want?

http://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Fina ... Signatures

Key_Sig_issues.jpg
 
Key_Sig_Barline.jpg
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:20 am

RimasG wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:53 am
...I have heard that it has been officially decided, in the latest rules for writing musical text, that it is no longer necessary to show the acidentals of the former key when changing the key...
For what it's worth, Arnold Arnstein had decided the same thing and was no longer canceling key signatures in the 1970s and probably long before that with no complaints from anyone. He did insist on a double bar for all key changes.

However, I prefer the older style, but have come to dislike the double bar as too disruptive.
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:41 am

bakkumd wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:59 pm
Do these settings get you closer to what you want?
Always using "major" gets me exactly what I want, which is always cancelling when the key signature actually changes.

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