overlapping

[musicus]

On the attached I formatted meas.4 correctly so that the double dots
don't overlap the notes. I tried to copy paste that measure into meas.3 but meas.3 doesn't change in that respect. How can I fix meas.3 so the dots and the whole note don't collide?

[Bill Stevens]

Use the Note Mover tool to move the whole note to the left. (Note it is in layer 2.)

Also, make sure you have the Edit Filter set correctly and it should copy correctly.

::: Bill

[musicus]

Not getting it. I see how to access the Edit Filter but what setting
would correct this?

Use the Note Mover tool to move the whole note to the left. (Note it is in layer 2.)

Also, make sure you have the Edit Filter set correctly and it should copy correctly.

::: Bill

[heinzfan]

Not getting it. Where do I find the Edit Filter?

Use the Note Mover tool to move the whole note to the left. (Note it is in layer 2.)

Also, make sure you have the Edit Filter set correctly and it should copy correctly.

::: Bill

Try looking in the Edit Menu.

[musicus]

I see that - but I don't see which box to check/uncheck.

Not getting it. Where do I find the Edit Filter?

Use the Note Mover tool to move the whole note to the left. (Note it is in layer 2.)

Also, make sure you have the Edit Filter set correctly and it should copy correctly.

::: Bill

Try looking in the Edit Menu.

[Bill Stevens]

All boxes. Works for me.

::: Bill

[musicus]

Thanks. I just fooled with the special tools palette, moving the
note to the left, and found that it worked. Thanks again.

All boxes. Works for me.

::: Bill

[bakkumd]

Thanks. I just fooled with the special tools palette, moving the
note to the left, and found that it worked. Thanks again.

Many note moving adjustments are discarded or changed when the spacing or layout is updated - so you might have to continuously check the special note alterations as you adjust the piece.

Swapping layers and switching stem direction to up corrects the issue. The swapped layers example below will always display correctly after a layout update.

[musicus]

Thank you, but I'm not understanding regarding the swapping layers and
switching stem directions. I don't see how the example you posted differs from the
one I posted. Aren't the layers and stem directions the same?

Thanks. I just fooled with the special tools palette, moving the
note to the left, and found that it worked. Thanks again.

Many note moving adjustments are discarded or changed when the spacing or layout is updated - so you might have to continuously check the special note alterations as you adjust the piece.

Swapping layers and switching stem direction to up corrects the issue. The swapped layers example below will always display correctly after a layout update.


Swap Layers copy.png

[bakkumd]

In your original file, the whole notes are red, indicating layer 2. The shorter notes are black indicating layer 1. In my example, the whole notes are black (layer 1) and the shorter notes are red (layer 2). This is how your file opened up for me:

When I apply note spacing to your original file, I get this:

The spacing update clears the manual positioning of your red whole notes (layer 2), so you are back where you started - with overlapping notes/dots.

In my experience, notes in layer 1 will default to the left most beat position in a unison cluster. Swapping the layers puts the whole notes into layer one, giving them the left most position in the unison cluster.

When the shorter notes are moved to layer 2 (after the swap), their stems default down - you need to change the stem direction to up via the Utilities menu. Stem direction is not cleared when spacing or layout is updated, so the up-stem edit will be maintained (unlike the manual note positions).

After swapping the layers as I did in my previous post, the whole notes default to the left in the unison cluster. You won't need to check these two bars every time something else changes and spacing or layout is updated. They will remain correct.

[musicus]

Ah, I see what you mean. Thank you.

In your original file, the whole notes are red, indicating layer 2. The shorter notes are black indicating layer 1. In my example, the whole notes are black (layer 1) and the shorter notes are red (layer 2). This is how your file opened up for me:


Original.jpg


When I apply note spacing to your original file, I get this:


Update Layout.jpg


The spacing update clears the manual positioning of your red whole notes (layer 2), so you are back where you started - with overlapping notes/dots.

In my experience, notes in layer 1 will default to the left most beat position in a unison cluster. Swapping the layers puts the whole notes into layer one, giving them the left most position in the unison cluster.

When the shorter notes are moved to layer 2 (after the swap), their stems default down - you need to change the stem direction to up via the Utilities menu. Stem direction is not cleared when spacing or layout is updated, so the up-stem edit will be maintained (unlike the manual note positions).

After swapping the layers as I did in my previous post, the whole notes default to the left in the unison cluster. You won't need to check these two bars every time something else changes and spacing or layout is updated. They will remain correct.

[N Grossingink]

If you would notate this measure correctly, there would be no overlapping and the rhythms would be clearer. In general, double dotting notes should be avoided except when necessary - for example a double dotted eighth followed by a 32nd.

Screen Shot 2023-05-03 at 4.48.14 AM.jpg (31.5 KiB) Viewed 4263 times

[musicus]

In your example, the eighth note does not appear to be double dotted.

If you would notate this measure correctly, there would be no overlapping and the rhythms would be clearer. In general, double dotting notes should be avoided except when necessary - for example a double dotted eighth followed by a 32nd.
Screen Shot 2023-05-03 at 4.48.14 AM.jpg

[N Grossingink]

In your example, the eighth note does not appear to be double dotted.

And it shouldn't be. Please read my response again, carefully.

[musicus]

I have re-read it very carefully.

In your example, the eighth note does not appear to be double dotted.

And it shouldn't be. Please read my response again, carefully.

[Peter Thomsen]

I have re-read it very carefully …

musicus,

Sorry for being dense.

Are you saying that you now understand - after re-reading N Grossingink’s post carefully ?

Or are you saying that you still do not understand ?

[musicus]

I think I see the problem here and it is my misunderstanding of his reply. Probably the image he posted is the way he thinks the example SHOULD be written. I was thinking that the exception he cites (a double dotted 8th followed by a 32nd) is represented by the image he posted, and that's where the confusion occurred. Not his fault but mine.

I have re-read it very carefully …

musicus,

Sorry for being dense.

Are you saying that you now understand - after re-reading N Grossingink’s post carefully ?

Or are you saying that you still do not understand ?

[David Ward]

If you would notate this measure correctly, there would be no overlapping and the rhythms would be clearer. In general, double dotting notes should be avoided except when necessary - for example a double dotted eighth followed by a 32nd.

Although I agree that in this particular case not using the double dots really does seem to help, I feel a little flummoxed by the disapproval of double dots expressed from time to time on this forum. Does it perhaps depend on the musical culture to which one belongs? In my now quite long life (I'm 82) much of it dedicated to music, I have never encountered a professional classical musician who seems any less happy with double dots than with single ones. Double dots can occur, sometimes quite often, in the ‘standard’ repertoire from which most such musicians usually earn their regular incomes. Bruckner has triple dots in his ninth symphony, and somewhere (I don't remember where) there are quadruple dots.

[Andreo Basisto]

Greetings David!

A quick internet search has given these examples of quadruple dotted minims:
Liszt: Piano Concerto 2, Allegro deciso, mm. 327 and 331;
Schumann: String Quartet no. 1, Op. 41/1 III, mm. 16, 17, 33, 34;
Verdi: Requiem Rex Tremendae, mm. 356 and 358;
Franck: Prelude, Chorale, and Fugue mm. 2 & 4;
Hindemith: Mathis der Maler Symphony III, introduction;
Bartók: Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta III, m. 80;
Rautavaara: Icons, Op. 6 I ("Jumalanäidin kuolema"), mm. 2-3

A longer list than I would have imagined!

Andreo Basisto

[David Ward]

Greetings David!

A quick internet search has given these examples of quadruple dotted minims:
Liszt: Piano Concerto 2, Allegro deciso, mm. 327 and 331;
Schumann: String Quartet no. 1, Op. 41/1 III, mm. 16, 17, 33, 34;
Verdi: Requiem Rex Tremendae, mm. 356 and 358;
Franck: Prelude, Chorale, and Fugue mm. 2 & 4;
Hindemith: Mathis der Maler Symphony III, introduction;
Bartók: Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta III, m. 80;
Rautavaara: Icons, Op. 6 I ("Jumalanäidin kuolema"), mm. 2-3 … …

Heavens! I must check the scores (or the several of these which I have). Fascinating.

I first met mere triple dots about 60 years ago when I was roped in at no notice (to replace someone who was ill) to play the bass trombone in Bruckner 9. There was minimal rehearsal for me, because of my late involvement. I was very nervous, but had no difficulty reading the triple dots instantly and correctly, although I'd never encountered them before.

[N Grossingink]

I've been involved in the educational music field (school band, jazz and orchestra) for almost 40 years. Most of my notational preferences have been very much influenced by my publisher clients and their music editors.

Of course, most of these publisher preferences have been designed with young musicians in mind - they tend to uncomplicate notation somewhat. I'm a big believer in music being clear "at a glance". That means revealing the inner subdivision of a measure into "beats". Good musicians read music in "chunks" of 2 or 3 measures at a time. Seeing "the beats" speeds up the process of "buffering" the music in one's mind as it's being played, I think.

Go to the New York Philharmonic Digital Archive and you can look at parts and scores performed by some of the greatest orchestral musicians ever. Their pencilled in markings are all there and you'll see some of the most mundane reminders of seemingly basic musical knowledge. So perhaps sometimes you can't be too careful.

[David Ward]

… … … So perhaps sometimes you can't be too careful.

Yes, but… I'm not sure there are rigidly absolute rights and wrongs in this: there are so many variables. I've never experienced anyone's having problems with double dots sensibly used.