Score layout: aligning bottom systems on pages 1 & 2 (and beyond)

[Andrew Harrison]

Dear Finale-sters,

I've got some questions about score layout, which I'm struggling with (and have always struggled with, frankly).

I've got a score with two systems per page, and, as per Elaine Gould's guidelines, I'm trying to ensure that the very top staff of the upper system, and the very bottom staff of the bottom system are aligned across the pages of the score. I'm happy, however, with the positioning of the top system on each page (from page 2 onwards), and don't want this to change.

So far, I've managed to get the top systems, from page 2 onwards, to be aligned (allowing for the offset which occurs with the first system on page 1). However, I can't seem to find a way to make the bottom systems line up, without losing the spacing in between the two systems, and also altering the top system on each page. (Sounds confusing, I know!).

Is there something simple that I am missing here? Or is page layout really hard? I've watching the Conquering Finale videos, and done some experimentation, but I can't see to find a way to setup a simple layout that will work easily. Is there a plugin I can use?

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrew Harrison

[Peter Thomsen]

If I understand you correctly, you are dealing with two different problems:

A) The layout on Page 2 and beyond.

B) The layout on Page 1.


Regarding A) - the layout on Page 2 and beyond:

If I understand you correctly, in all the upper systems you need the top staves to be aligned, on all pages from Page 2 and onwards - right? (but not on Page 1, to make room for the Title)
This should happen automatically if the all pages are formatted according to the document’s default settings for new pages / systems.
You can view - and edit - the {new pages / systems} default settings here:
Document menu > Page Format > Score…

If I understand you correctly, in all the lower systems you need the bottom staves to be aligned, on all pages from Page 2 and onwards - right?
This - too - should happen automatically if the all pages are formatted according to the document’s default settings for new pages / systems.

Unfortunately I can not compare the layout on Page 2 and Page 3, since your attachment only shows Page 1 and Page 2.
Please tell:
Does the system layout look the same on the pages 2 - 3 - 4 … ?


Regarding B) - the layout on Page 1:

If I understand you correctly, the upper system on Page 1 should positioned lower than on the following pages, to make room for the Title - right? At least that is what I see in your attachment.

What about the lower system on Page 1 ? - What do you need for the lower system on Page 1 ?


The better we understand, the better we can help.

[Bill Stevens]

I believe the plug-in Perfect Layout does what you want. https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout

::: Bill

[Andrew Harrison]

Hi Peter,

As always, many thanks for your prompt response. It's constantly appreciated. To address your points:

* Yes, you are right, there are essentially two different issues - one with page 1, and one with pages 2 and beyond.
* I am hoping to align the bottom stave of the bottom system of all pages - 1 to end. I think my image was probably not the best example, as I'm planning on 'averaging out' the distance between the bottom system on page 1 and page 2, and then using that as the correct point for the entire score. I'm hoping to make it a 'set and forget', if possible.
*I am also planning on aligning the top staff of the top systems on pages 2 - the end. This is already happening, hence the reason why I didn't post beyond page 2.

I guess this goes to a bigger point that I am trying to also ascertain - what are the conventions for system margins for publishing, particularly when on A4 (I operate in centimetres). Whilst I'm sure there is variation around, are there some standard rules in terms of system margins that I can learn, and then plug into Finale to use on an ongoing basis?

Currently, I'm preparing a number of scores that use a quartet lineup, so most of my pages have two systems per page for the score. I'm trying to get some consistency, firstly so my scores look neat and uniform across different pieces, and also to reduce the amount of time I need to spend setting these things up in the longer term.

As I said, I can post a copy of the Finale file if needs be. Your advice and expertise is terrific.

Thanks,
Andrew

[John Ruggero]

Comments on the spacing in your score that might be relevant:

On page 2, the spacing between many of the staves within each system is too tight, especially given the size of the pages. Let the spacing vary more between the staves depending on the amount of information contained between them.

On page 1 the title is a little too high, as is the composer name. The spacing between the staves could be tweaked a little more but is in the ball park given the fact that space is more limited.

The only things that need to match between the pages are headers like page numbers and the name of the piece, and footers like publisher catalogue numbers. And while systems should roughly correspond between facing pages if possible, it is not essential. Music is different from other print media in that way.

[N Grossingink]

I would break all of the barlines between staves and at the end of the system (except the Piano). Helps clarify the layout.

[motet]

I believe "Space Systems Evenly" in the Page Layout tool will move the bottom system to the bottom page margin and the top system to the top page margin.

[John Ruggero]

And the top and bottom margins of the actual music don't have to be consistent or match from page to page. Here is an example:

https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usim ... 4score.pdf

Legibility is the most important factor, and this can only be judged and adjusted by hand.

[dtoub]

I second the use of Space Systems Evenly. Have used that a number of times, and have found that more reliable overall than Perfect Layout, which may work well for this use case only if you tweak the many settings to your liking, in my experience.

Years ago, I seem to recall that the Page Layout tool had an option that made this simpler but that went away so long ago that I couldn't tell you what it was called. Part of the challenge is that Finale's page layout algorithms are not as automatic as one might like. It's often a mystery how it determines measure placement and spacing.

[ebiggs1]

I believe the plug-in Perfect Layout does what you want. https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout

Perfect Layout follows Elaine Gould's guidelines in total not just the page layout. It is what PL is based on.

[Andrew Harrison]

Thanks to everyone who responded to my situation - much appreciated! I'll have a look into Perfect Layout.

Since posting, I've been thinking if I can better understand what my issue was, and whilst working in the score, something became clear. (This might already be clear to other people).

What I am wanting to do is be able to have two systems on a page - with different numerical values for the 'Distance Between Staves' settings after moving one of them - and then neatly replicate/copy these settings into subsequent pages, so I can make my score look uniform. Given the recent replies, I therefore have two questions:

1. Is this possible to do with a Finale plugin?, and if not,
2. is this what Perfect Layout does?

Thanks a lot.
Cheers
Andrew

[dtoub]

There may be a plug-in to do that (maybe Patterson or THT if memory serves but it might not be what you’re asking specifically).

PL can set distance between staves etc but it likely doesn’t accomplish what you’re looking for. I’ve seen PL alter the distance between staves to accommodate a range and make the systems fit on a page. That can be useful, or not. If you want uniformity it works (as does the Staff Tool) but you are looking to have each of two systems use different distances between staves and that may require either the Staff Tool for each system (laborious but should work) or a Finale script you create. Just my thoughts. Thanks.

[mmike]

Nobody has mentioned the Plug-in > Scoring and Arranging > Space Systems. It seems to me that, by trying various settings, this could accomplish what you want.

[Peter Thomsen]

Nobody has mentioned the Plug-in > Scoring and Arranging > Space Systems. It seems to me that, by trying various settings, this could accomplish what you want.

The Original Poster, Andrew Harrison, asked for a solution with different numerical values for the vertical staff spacing.

In Other Words:
Andrew Harrison needs this:
- Two score systems on each page.
- All the upper systems have identical staff spacing (= their staves are aligned across a page spread).
- All the lower systems have identical staff spacing (= their staves are aligned across a page spread), but not the same spacing as in the upper systems.


Unfortunately the Space Systems plug-in can only handle system spacing, not staff spacing.

[dtoub]

Yup. That’s why I suggested the staff tool. It can be your friend.

[ebiggs1]

Andrew,
Perfect Layout will set everything to industry accepted standards, "rules" if you will, but it depends on several things happening in your score. The range of the notes for instance can affect spacing. What articulations and expressions that are present will effect spacing. Measure numbers, text box , etc.

Wanting something to look uniform when it isn't might be a stretch for any plug-in. You can send Perfect Layout one of your scores. They will run it and return it for you to see if it does what you desire. https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/

[dtoub]

As mentioned, PL will not do everything the same for the top system and different for the bottom. I use PL and for some things it’s a time saver and for others it makes some things more problematic for me, so one’s mileage may vary. But sure, send it to them and see what comes out of it.

Again, the Staff Tool can desplace selected staves as desired.