Creating a 4-measure repeat

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GY
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Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by GY » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:22 am

Hello

In Finale, it is easy to create a 1 or two bar repeat of the type often seen in jazz charts. Here are the instructions

To create a measure repeat sign
Click the Staff Tool s and select the measures you want to contain measure repeat signs. See Selecting music for some region-selecting shortcuts.
From the Staff Menu, choose Apply Staff Style. The Apply Staff Style dialog box appears.
Select either One-Bar Repeat(s) or Two-Bar Repeat(s). Or, right-click and choose from the list of styles. Or, press O for a one bar repeat and T for a two bar repeat.


However... how do I create a 4 or 6 or 8 bar repeat?

Thanks, I tried to figure this out but I feel it's much more efficient to ask here.

Nik

Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

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Four-Bar repeat

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:27 pm

Assuming you are using Finale 2009:

The Staff Tool gives you some options for alternate notation.
Among these are One-Bar Repeat and Two-Bar Repeat.
You can create staff styles for One-Bar Repeat and for Two-Bar Repeat.
If you create a new document from the Default Document, your document already has One-Bar Repeat and Two-Bar Repeat in its list of available staff styles.

Unfortunately there is no Four-Bar Repeat option in the Alternate Notation dialog box.

So you have to create the symbol yourself.

If you are using the Jazz font, you have a ready made symbol.
In the Jazz font the four bar repeat character is located at #247 (Macintosh: option-shift N).

If you are using the Maestro font, you have to create the symbol in the Shape Designer.

I recommend entering the Four-Bar repeat symbol in the score as an expression.

In the Four-Bar repeat you might prefer to add curves (or something similar) to the left and to the right to stretch over the measures in both directions.
If you leave "Allow Horizontal Stretching" on, you will see that the expression's two curves adapt to the various situations in terms of width.

Since you want the expression to be positioned on the barline between the 2nd and the 3rd of the four measures, assign it to the Left Barline of the 3rd measure, and set the expression's Horizontal Positioning to a negative number.

Once the symbol is created and entered at one place in the score, you can quickly copy it to other places with the Selection Tool.

To hide the playback notes in the 4 measures, use the staff style Blank Notation.

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Post by GY » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:09 pm

Hello Peter

Thanks as always for the quick response. I am using the Jazz Font and I found the symbol using Finale help. However, it is unclear to me how to get that symbol into the actual score. I thought I could create an expression, so I chose Expression from the Tools menu, double clicked at the spot I want the 4-bar repeat, and got the Expression Selection dialog box. I tried clicking Create and got to a box which has tabs like 'Shape', 'Playback' and 'Note Positioning'. I thought I could enter the number '247' in the Shape field and get that shape up, but it didn't seem to work.

In the Expression selection dialog box there is a radio button that let's me switch frm 'Text' to 'Shape'. I then chose 'Text' and tried the process but still no luck.

I tried to cut and paste the actual symbol straight from the 'Help' screen where I saw it, but I cannot do that.

I then found this text in the help area

You add a library’s contents to the active document by choosing Load Library from the File Menu, or by clicking Load Library in the Document options dialog box..

So I went to the File menu and found Load Library and chose the Measure Rest Library. I thought I was on the right track! I clicked on that and the box disappeared. Ok, so I double clicked over the bar line between the 2nd and 3rd bars... and again I got the Expression selection dialog box. I tried the same procedures and interestingly I got some high numbers appearing as defaults (like 238) but I could not use the number '247' to access the 4-bar rest symbol.

I then went back and chose the 'Jazz Font Library' instead of the 'Measure Rest Library' but no luck. I'm not asking Finale to display my choices in the right way.

I'm sorry I can't figure this one out, can you give me a specific instruction as to where that 4 bar repeat is located and how I can get it into the score? I will play aorund with pretending that it doesn't exist and creating my own per your second set of instructions above.

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Four-Bar repeat

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:58 pm

GY wrote:...I am using the Jazz Font and I found the symbol using Finale help. However, it is unclear to me how to get that symbol into the actual score. I thought I could create an expression, so I chose Expression from the Tools menu, double clicked at the spot I want the 4-bar repeat, and got the Expression Selection dialog box. I tried clicking Create and got to a box which has tabs like 'Shape', 'Playback' and 'Note Positioning'. I thought I could enter the number '247' in the Shape field and get that shape up, but it didn't seem to work.

In the Expression selection dialog box there is a radio button that let's me switch from 'Text' to 'Shape'. I then chose 'Text' and tried the process but still no luck...
Which version of Finale are you using?

From your description it sounds like you aren't using Finale 2009 (but perhaps Finale 2008 or 2007?).

In the dialog box Expression Selection you can choose between two radio buttons labeled "Measure Expression" and "Note Expression".
I suggest that you try "Measure Expression".

In the dialog box Expression Selection you can also choose between two radio buttons labeled "Text" and "Shape".

Do you want to add curves (or something similar) to the left and to the right to stretch over the measures in both directions?

If you do, you must choose "Shape", since the curves are shapes created in the Shape Designer.

If you just want the "Four-Bar Repeat" symbol (= character #247 in the Jazz font), you can just as well choose "Text".

When you have chosen the radio buttons "Measure Expression" and "Text", click the button "Create...".

In the Text Expression Designer, the chiclet "Text" is selected by default.
And therefore the Text menu is available.
Text menu > Font > Jazz
Text menu > Size > 24
Text menu > Style > Plain
Text menu > Inserts > Symbol...

In the Symbol Selection, scroll down to character #247, and select it.
When you return to the Text Expression Designer, the Four-Bar Repeat symbol appears in the dialog box.

Click the chiclet Measure Positioning.

In the pane Horizontal:
Expression Alignment Point: Center
Measure Alignment Point: Left Barline
Additional Horizontal Offset: 2 EVPUs (= 0.5 Points)*

In the pane Vertical:
Position: Staff Reference Line
Additional Vertical Offset: -75 EVPUs (= -18.75 Points)

When you want to use the expression, assign it to the 3rd of the 4 measures.
The expression attaches itself to the 3rd measure's left barline.

*) What have you chosen as Measurement Units?
EVPUs? Points? Spaces? Or?
You can choose Measurement Units in Preferences > Measurement Units.

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Re: Four-Bar repeat

Post by GY » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:35 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:Which version of Finale are you using?
Peter, I'm sorry I forgot to specify that I'm using 2008
Peter Thomsen wrote:In the dialog box Expression Selection you can choose between two radio buttons labeled "Measure Expression" and "Note Expression".
I suggest that you try "Measure Expression".

In the dialog box Expression Selection you can also choose between two radio buttons labeled "Text" and "Shape".

Do you want to add curves (or something similar) to the left and to the right to stretch over the measures in both directions?
Peter, I truly do appreciate the time you're spending with me on this. I'm not sure if you're with Finale or not, but it doesn't matter, I know how long it takes to compose these replies.

At this point I don't want anything fancy, just that 4-bar rest #247 would be fine.
Peter Thomsen wrote:When you have chosen the radio buttons "Measure Expression" and "Text", click the button "Create...".

In the Text Expression Designer, the chiclet "Text" is selected by default.
And therefore the Text menu is available.
Text menu > Font > Jazz
Text menu > Size > 24
Text menu > Style > Plain
Text menu > Inserts > Symbol...

In the Symbol Selection, scroll down to character #247, and select it.
When you return to the Text Expression Designer, the Four-Bar Repeat symbol appears in the dialog box.
Your instructions are so clear and concise, I really fear I'm missing something obvious. Here's what happens. I bring up Expression Selection and choose the 'Text' and 'Measure Expression' radio buttons. I click create. I get the next dialog box, and it indeed does default to the Text chiclet. The other chiclets are 'Playback', Note Positioning' and 'Measure Positioning'.

But now what? I am looking at the Text pane, which feature a big blank window ready for something to be entered into it. You said 'And therefore the Text menu is available'. But I don't see any drop down boxes for Font, Size, Style and Inserts. I just have the blank window, below that the words Times New Roman 12, then a blank field for Description, then an area where I can choose Enclosure (including a drop down menu) and a greyed out button marked Edit) and the check box for Break Multimeasure Rest. That's all that appears under the Text Chiclet (let's be sure we're talking about the same thing - I am used to calling these Tabs, are we on the same page with that?).

So I can't execute any of your instructions like

Text menu > Font > Jazz
Text menu > Size > 24

because I don't know what this means. Enter that exact text in the Text window? I tried that but in the end, instead of getting the 4-bar rest symbol, I got that particular text appearing on the chart! Also, there is nothing marked 'Symbol Selection' anywhere within the Text chiclet (or Tab). I cannot enter $247 anywhere.

Here's what's strange. Your instructions for what to do under the Measure Positioning chiclet are totally possible!! All the fields you mentioned are there and I could easily carry out that set of instructions.

Possibly a bad install? I can't believe it - Finale has been running perfectly.

Anyhow, please don't spend too much more time on this. If you have a fix or something I can try, let me know, otherwise what I will do is cal up one of the other guys I know who use the program and get them to help me on the phone.

Thanks again

Nik

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Re: Four-Bar repeat

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:13 pm

GY wrote:...I click create. I get the next dialog box, and it indeed does default to the Text chiclet. The other chiclets are 'Playback', Note Positioning' and 'Measure Positioning'.

But now what? I am looking at the Text pane, which feature a big blank window ready for something to be entered into it. You said 'And therefore the Text menu is available'. But I don't see any drop down boxes for Font, Size, Style and Inserts. I just have the blank window, below that the words Times New Roman 12, then a blank field for Description, then an area where I can choose Enclosure (including a drop down menu) and a greyed out button marked Edit) and the check box for Break Multimeasure Rest. That's all that appears under the Text Chiclet (let's be sure we're talking about the same thing - I am used to calling these Tabs, are we on the same page with that?)...
Perhaps we aren't talking about the same thing.
I'm talking about the Text menu, but it sounds like you are talking about the Text chiclet?

On The Other Hand, it could also be a bad install, causing the Text menu to disappear.

Perhaps the other menus have disappeared, too?
Can you see the other menus (File menu, Edit menu, Utilities menu, View menu, Document menu, MIDI/Audio menu, &c.)?

In my copy of (Mac) Finale 2008 the Text menu appears between the Plug-in menu and the Help menu, but the Text menu is only visible when the Text chiclet is selected.
If I click e. g. the Measure Positioning chiclet, the Text menu disappears (and the Expression menu appears instead).

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Re: Four-Bar repeat

Post by GY » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:13 am

Peter, I've been able to use your instructions to get a 4 bar repeat into the score. Thank you once again for all your help. I still can't get to the point when I can get one working with just a few steps - I have to go through the procedure each time I want one, but I will try to experiment and figure out how to cut and paste them (for some odd reason I can't simply choose one using the selection tool and copy it).

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Copying Four-Bar repeat

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:27 pm

Instead of copying the Four-Bar Repeat you should copy the entire measure (double-click the measure to select it).
Then in the dialog box Edit Filter you can specify that you only want to copy measure expressions.

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Post by #84 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:31 am

Really, why would you want a four-bar repeat?

Admittedly, it was a quick and handy shortcut when we used to do everything in manuscript. But now its a complex and puzzling process to produce using a notation program.

Its so simple to copy and paste a 4 bar lick nowadays. Why do it the hard way?


"When in doubt ..... write it out."

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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by StevenHashimoto » Wed May 29, 2013 2:38 am

I often need to use a 4-bar repeat sign when writing out dance tunes (and by dance I mean Lady Gaga, etc) for jobbing bands, where there are tons of repeating figures and I'm attempting to keep the rhythm section parts to 2 or 3 pages. I'd prefer to write everything out but sometimes it's just not possible.

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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by miker » Wed May 29, 2013 2:57 am

The 4-bar repeat is available in the Helsinki Special font. Here,
I've pasted it into a Finale doc, and added the "4" from the Maestro font.
The Helsinki fonts come with Sibelius. You can download the demo, and then discard it. The fonts will remain.
repeat.png
repeat.png (140.64 KiB) Viewed 36717 times
A little more searching, and I find that it comes in Finale, in the Jazz font, ready to go. Just as Peter said, up above, years ago... (blush)
repeat2.png
repeat2.png (108.13 KiB) Viewed 36714 times
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by GY » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:02 am

Well, well! Nice to see this old post of mine got some recent attention.

Ironically, I did a search tonight about how to get a 4 bar repeat into Finale... and the first hit on Google was my post!

Too bad I had to do the search, but I'm having trouble, probably because I am now on Finale 2012a.r3. The situation seems to have changed and now, when I bring up the Expression Selection dialog box, there are no radio buttons marked 'Text' and 'Measure Expression' to be seen. I'm stymied as to how to go forward because I can't follow the (amazing) directions Peter gave me in '08.

Likely the answer is staring me in the face. If anyone has any clue about this, please chime in. Peter, if you're still around, do you have any ideas? Are those radio buttons actually gone or am I just not smart enough to find them?
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by GY » Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:52 am

I found this

"A basic set of Expression markings is already included whenever you start a new default document, template, or document with the Setup Wizard. If the Expression Selection dialog box is empty when you’re attempting to place an expression in the score, you can remedy the situation by choosing Load Library from the File menu, locating the Libraries folder, and double-clicking the correct libraries (the Articulation Library for the Articulation tool, Text Expression Library and Shape Expression Library for the Expression tool)"

So... the Expression Selection Dialog Box doesn't show Shapes, only Expressive Text, Tempo Marks, Dynamics, etc. So I figured the right Library wasn't loaded, per the above.

I went to File-->Load Libraries and found the ShapeExpressions.LIB, clicked on it and clicked Open... but a new set of choices did not pop up in the left hand window of the Expressions Selection Dialog box.

I feel like I need to be able to see the right category appear in the Expressions Selection dialog box, and that will be the way to get the repeat into the score.

Too bad... I thought I had it there for a second.
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by GY » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:23 am

Another weird thing. I changed the Default Font to Jazz, using Document--> Document Options--> Set Default Music Font

I then tried to make a chart and find the 4 bar repeat. Couldn't do it.

Just now I tried to create another new chart using File-->New-->Document with Setup Wizard. However, the document is not going to be a Jazz Font Document. It says Maestro Font, and in the Select A Document Style window I have the choice to switch to Broadway Copyist by clicking on Handwritten Style, but I can't make it a Jazz Font document (even though the chart I made just a whiule back looks like it's a Jazz Font document).

EDIT:

Aha!! So I chose to use the Broadway Copyist setting to create a chart, and now when I bring up the Expression Selection dialog box, there are a bunch of new choices in there, stuff that would be appropriate for a pop or jazz chart! So, this means that there is a way to get other choices into the Expressions Selection box, and I just have to figure out how to 'see' the symbol I want using that box!
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:35 am

GY,

Did you manage to solve your problems with Finale 2012??
Or do you still have questions?
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by GY » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:08 am

Peter, nice to see you here again.

I have been trying off and on for the past few hours and I cannot figure out how to view that 4 bar repeat symbol. Can you help? Am I correct that the radio buttons in the Expression Selection dialog box, the ones I used in '08, are not available in Finale 2012?

If you can help me get a 4 bar repeat onto a score, I would be eternally grateful. I have about 4 pop charts here that are all waiting for the 4 bar repeat symbol.

By the way, to the member who asked why we would use these, I can't imagine doing a pop chart without them (I don't do many pop charts but if you want to hold them down to 2 or 3 pages for jobbers, they're indispensible, IMO).

Thanks Peter.
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:28 pm

GY wrote:…Am I correct that the radio buttons in the Expression Selection dialog box, the ones I used in '08, are not available in Finale 2012?…
Youn probably mean the radio buttons marked 'Note Expression' and 'Measure Expression'.

The distinction between note expressions and measure expressions is now obsolete.
Instead we have expression categories - and categories can be a huge timesaver:
Edit a category (change fonts, change positioning defaults, &c.) - and your edits apply to all the expressions in the category.

There are 6 default categories:
Dynamics
Tempo Marks (with Score List)
Tempo Alterations (with Score List)
Expressive Text
Technique Text
Rehearsal marks (with Score List)

You can edit these default categories, and you can create new categories, by duplicating existing categories and editing the duplicates.

3 of the default categories use Score Lists, the other 3 categories use Assignment Lists instead.


I don't think that there is a Four-Bar Repeat expression in the libraries that come with Finale 2012, so you will have to create it yourself.

Take a look at the attached document (using the Four-Bar Repeat symbol from the Jazz Font).
Attachments
Four-BarRepeat.mus.zip
(4.54 KiB) Downloaded 469 times
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by GY » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:45 am

Okay thanks Peter

So that old #247 is no longer available in Finale? That seems weird. Is the image no longer a part of the Jazz Character Set?

I already downloaded that attachment. The question is - how do I get that image into Finale in a way that's usable? In other words, how do I 'create' that image as you suggested?

EDIT!!!

Wait a minute! I clicked on the attachment you provided and it opened in my Zip program. I then double clicked on the .mus file and the document opened.

I had done a search for how to create my own expression, so I clicked on the Expression tool, and the Expression Selection dialog box opened...

**and there was a Four Bar Repeat**!!

What the heck How did it get in there? How do I get this Expression saved so that can use it on all my projects?

I'll post here if I can figure this out.
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by GY » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:03 am

Okay Peter, I really need you to explain this one to me.

I opened the file you provided, a .mus file, and Finale opened and I saw your document, and I realized that the Expression I want is now available when I click the Expression tool with your document open.

However, when I go to open a document I want to add this symbol to, one of my tunes, the symbol is not available in the Expression Selection box!!

Really? So your document somehow 'contains' that symbol and the Expression editor knows it, but Finale can't make the same symbol available to me for another document even though it's the same instance of Finale running??

Totally confused now, sorry. I need that symbol so badly. I am trying to create my own in the editor but I can't find lines thick enough, like yours. Trying to freehand it using the Create button is hopeless, I'm no artiste.
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by GY » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:19 am

Okay, more progress. I examined the symbol you created and noticed that you had not used the Shape creator. You used the Text creation function, with the 'Jazz' font.

I got excited because I thought "maybe he's just using the keys on his computer keyboard to create this!!'

So I opened one of my charts and opened the Expression dialog box and clicked 'Create New Miscellaneous'.

However, the characters I'm trying to enter are not acting right. When I type '4', it appears but it's sort of too low, I can only see half of it. When I try to click enter to get to the next line (to type in the slash symbols below the 4) it sort of doesn't work right. In addition, when I click the slash symbol on my keyboard, I get this weird looking double line thing which is not a slash.

I use an old IBM Model M keyboard with clicky keys. Might this be the issue? But still, the 4, although it appears and looks like your font, does not appear right in the window.

Any ideas? I still feel it's very strange that Finale is open and the Expression Dialog box that appears when I open your document shows this symbol, but Finale cannot 'see' the symbol well enough to make it available to me in other documents!
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:20 pm

GY wrote:…I opened the file you provided, a .mus file, and Finale opened and I saw your document, and I realized that the Expression I want is now available when I click the Expression tool with your document open.

However, when I go to open a document I want to add this symbol to, one of my tunes, the symbol is not available in the Expression Selection box!!

Really? So your document somehow 'contains' that symbol and the Expression editor knows it, but Finale can't make the same symbol available to me for another document even though it's the same instance of Finale running??…
Expressions are document specific, not program specific.

To use my Four-Bar Repeat expression in other documents, save it as a library, and load that library into the other documents:

1) Open my document "Four-BarRepeat.mus".
2) File menu > Save Library…
3) In the dialog box Save Library, select "Text Expressions".
4) Give your new library a name and a place to live.

To load the new library into a document:
1) Open the document where you want to load the library.
2) File menu > Load Library…

Tip:
If you load the library into your template(s), all new documents will get the Four-Bar Repeat expression.
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:35 pm

GY wrote:Okay, more progress. I examined the symbol you created and noticed that you had not used the Shape creator. You used the Text creation function, with the 'Jazz' font.

I got excited because I thought "maybe he's just using the keys on his computer keyboard to create this!!'

So I opened one of my charts and opened the Expression dialog box and clicked 'Create New Miscellaneous'.

However, the characters I'm trying to enter are not acting right. When I type '4', it appears but it's sort of too low, I can only see half of it. When I try to click enter to get to the next line (to type in the slash symbols below the 4) it sort of doesn't work right. In addition, when I click the slash symbol on my keyboard, I get this weird looking double line thing which is not a slash…
1) The expression category "Miscellaneous" is the "non-category" category.
The purpose of the category "Miscellaneous" is to be a place where Finale can put a document's expressions when opening a document created in an earlier version - before expression categories.

When you want to create a new expression, I recommend that you create in one of the "real" categories.
If none of the already existing categories will fit your needs, create a new category according to your needs.

If you examine my document "Four-BarRepeat.mus", you will see that I created a special, custom category for the Four-Bar Repeat expression.
If you save a library with my Four-Bar Repeat expression, my custom category will be included in the library.


2) The glyph for Four-bar Repeat is a single character in the Jazz font.
You can not enter it by typing the individual elements (4 - . - / - / - / - / .).
If I Recall Correctly, you can enter the glyph by typing the tilde character.
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by GY » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:23 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote: 1) Open my document "Four-BarRepeat.mus".
2) File menu > Save Library…
3) In the dialog box Save Library, select "Text Expressions".
4) Give your new library a name and a place to live.

To load the new library into a document:
1) Open the document where you want to load the library.
2) File menu > Load Library…

Tip:
If you load the library into your template(s), all new documents will get the Four-Bar Repeat expression.
Peter, you are the *best*. This worked right away. Thanks so much. I don't have time to try the tip, or review the next post. I was just so happy to see that repeat in my document. I will read the following post late tonight and get back to you with a result.

Thanks once again for taking the time to help. Again.
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by jonhugo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:53 pm

Peter-

Thank you years ago for creating that library. Can I ask about clarification now on how to correctly use it so it looks akin to how the bars would look for a staff styles 2-bar repeat using the new expression? I thought it would have shown up under staff styles but I see it is instead an expression, so I just want to know what I have to do to make it look nice and clean.

Thank you!

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Peter Thomsen
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Re: Creating a 4-measure repeat

Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:18 am

jonhugo,

Take a look at the attached graphic.

If you examine the document I attached back in 2013, you will see that I used those settings.

Today I would probably have handled the positioning with a custom expression category.
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