Human playback inconsistent pt.2

Discuss playback problems, including VST, Garritan, MIDI, etc.

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Al Fine
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Post by Al Fine » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:56 pm

Hello all, I'm still finding Human playback to be inconsistent, or at least not as effective as I'd like (or perhaps I'm the one who is less than effective, heh). For example, in the attached file, from b.1-2, there doesn't seem to be an even cresc. from pp to f. From b.3-4, I hear no cresc. at all. The f in bar 5 seems louder than the previous two f's, and the scroll bar in b.6-8 and b. 10-12 breezes right by the ten. markings. The hairpins in 9-12 seem to be working, although unevenly, and not with as much difference between the dynamics as there should be.

I've tried a variety of settings in HP, such as Custom vs. Romantic, and have increased choices like Rubato to the maximum settings. I've tried spelling words out in full. I've been able to come up with work-arounds, such as adding tempo markings that mimic tenuto, or creating expressions with velocity settings between the established dynamics, but that seems to defeat the purpose of having the HP option.

I've had the "ten." setting work in another piece, but only temporarily, so that is curious to me. My Aria settings are scaled back, so maybe that is part of the problem? Am also wondering what the "attach to" option in HP preferences does, and if it could help?

Thanks in advance!
4. Human playback test.musx


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Djard
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Post by Djard » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:31 pm

I had similar problems because I had edited the library file. Test the features you describe in a default document to rule out a corrupted library file.

Al Fine
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Post by Al Fine » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:13 pm

Thanks for your response. I'm not sure what you mean by "default document", but I think the file I attached would qualify as one, as I created it brand new for my test. Also, I haven't edited my library, so this problem is still baffling me. The fact that it sometimes works is strange to me, as one might expect it either to completely work, or not to work at all.

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:37 pm

The default document: File -> New -> Default Document.

I once had "Hairpins and Dynamics" selected in Human Playback, but playback did not render a crescendo because I placed the hairpin too low and assigned it inadvertently to the next staff system. I resolved the issue by deleting the hairpin then inserting it again inside the stave, after which I dragged it down to the desired location. BTW, some instrument/soundfont plugins are not fully compatible with Finale and do not support dynamics.

You may find help in my online guide, in the Troubleshooting section, looking up items like dynamics and expressions ( Finale101). For example, for a crescendo, enter, say, "pp" at the start of the hairpin and an "ff" at the end. That should work, with any HP option enabled.

If wizards like Zuill, Peter and Mike cannot solve the problem, you may need to contact a MakeMusic engineer.

If all else fails, you could assign hidden dynamics (e.g.: pp-p-mp-mf-f-ff) along the hairpin... laborious, but a possibly a solution.

Let us know if you have any success,

Al Fine
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Post by Al Fine » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:30 pm

Djard, thank you for your response. Those are good suggestions. Unfortunately, I have already double checked to make sure the expressions were attached to the right areas, and I don't believe I'm using any plug-ins. I will try using pp<ff, but I think I've already played around with that. And yes using terraced dynamics is one work-around, and one which I have employed. I will look at your online guide for any additional help. What is particularly frustrating for me is that within the same piece, for the same instrument (I'm just using solo piano, each hand having its own channel), the same expression will work in one part of the score, then not work in another part. It's that inconsistency that is driving me crazy! Perhaps there are nuances that I'm not aware of?? Again, thanks for your input.

Al Fine
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Post by Al Fine » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:35 pm

P.S. Don't know if you saw my more recent post specifically addressing hairpins, but I included an example of the trouble I'm having, if you'd care to take a look...

oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:18 pm

What settings in Aria did you change?
And why?
When I've had dynamics or even tempi that weren't observed, I cleared Midi Data and all was fine again.

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:45 pm

Are you saying the following steps fail?

1. Make sure at least one HP genre is selected (I prefer to select Custom then import Latin, which I modify; since, for example in 4/4 time, the first beat should have the strongest accent and the third beat the second strongest accent, implied in common time. Without the accents, the time signature means very little).
2. Enter the hairpin.
3. Enter pp expression at the beginning, under the start note, and then f at the end.

If an expression works in one place but not another then MakeMusic has still not fixed that bug, which is a corruption of the library file, which is fragile--the more editing you do, the more likely something will become unstable. My workaround to single use expressions is to create new ones; for example, I cannot use rall. more than once for playback; so I need to create more if needed.

I cannot open your file because I'm still using v2012. I don't want to buy an "upgrade" that comes with old bugs.

One more thing you can try:

1. Save or make a backup of your document.
2. Selection tool -> click in start measure -> hold down Shift key -> click in end measure.
3. Right-click in any part of highlighted area -> Clear Selected Items -> None.
4. Check box for "Expressions: Dynamics..." -> OK.

If ALL of your dynamics are removed, undo the step or revert to your backup. I.m not sure if these steps apply to the highlighted area or the whole score.




Another thing

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miker
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Post by miker » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:59 pm

Purely my personal opinion, but...

GET A DAW. THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio_workstation

Of course, if their notation capabilities are lacking, you can complain on their forums.
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
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Djard
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Post by Djard » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:29 am

Oops! Sorry. I didn't realize I was complaining.

According to the definition at the link posted, Audacity is a DAW, albeit a relatively simple one: but it still offers a lot of features to master a polyphonic recording and render a professional sound. I think Finale does a fairly good job of shaping dynamics, like crescendos and dims; they can then be tweaked in a DAW if necessary.

Do you find it imperative to enter a dynamic marking before and after a hairpin for gradual volume change?

Al Fine
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Post by Al Fine » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:41 pm

Oldmkvi, I'm using the following: Equalizer; default settings, Convolution; small chamber space; Ambience; off; Instrument control; on, with default settings (have played around with the dials there, but they haven't seemed to have made a difference).

I'm using these settings because they were recommended by another poster, and for the most part, they are doing an excellent job of giving me the sound I'm looking for.

Thanks for your response.

Djard, I am using the HP custom setting, although I'm leaving the genre drop down blank, and adjusting the options below that (I think I've tried entering a genre before, but found that that hasn't made a difference). Do you think leaving it blank is part of the problem,though?

For hairpins, initially, I wasn't entering a beginning dynamic just before the hairpin, because I always have an established dynamic in place from earlier settings. However, I *have* tried duplicating the marking anyway just before the hairpin, haven't heard a difference. I've always put an ending dynamic for an open hairpin, and an end dynamic for a < > marking. I often use a peak dynamic for < >, i.e., <f>.

I have played around with using different marking for the same effect, i.e., hairpin v.s <, ten vs. tenuto, rit., then a duplicate rit. As you can see, I've made a good effort to fool the program, heh.

I will try your "Clear selected items".

It may be that I'll just have to use more work-arounds, i.e. creating a new expressions, then assigning specific tempo's and velocity markings. And perhaps I need to have fff be my peak where I'm not hearing a change. In the end, I'm getting about 95% off what I want, and I consider that pretty decent. As I've said before, it's that inconsistency that is bugging me (and my file, ha!), but at some point, I'll have to move on. Fortunately, I don't need my files to be perfect.

Al Fine
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Post by Al Fine » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:47 am

Here's something interesting that I just did...I had a < > marking for which I found the peak too loud. If I entered an actual dynamic in the middle, the hairpins stopped working. I tried a variety of other things I won't bother to list, but the method that actually softened the peak just a bit, was to have the respective openings of the < and > pass each other by one 8th note while going in opposite directions (in a 3/4 bar with six 8th notes, the cresc's opening goes to the fourth 8th note, and the descresc.'s opening goes to the 3rd 8th, if that makes sense). Weird!

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:47 am

In HP Custom settings, copy settings from standard then modify the settings as you wish. If Standard fails, try another genre, until you find one that works. But make sure "Hairpins and Dynamics" box is checked in the panel.

I cannot open your document with v2012, but I did select ARIA's Steinway piano in a new document and added a crescendo hairpin. Playback of the hairpin failed.

I then selected Grand Piano with SmartMusic SoftSynth, just to rule out ARIA as the problem. I added Garritan Ambience for better volume and turned off the default reverb. Playback of the crescendo hairpin then worked fine in the same document. And I did not need to place a dynamic at the beginning and end of the hairpin, though doing so gives more control. Unless someone can prove otherwise, the only conclusion I can make is that ARIA player is not fully compatible with Finale.

If you insist on using ARIA player, the only way I can see getting, say, a crescendo to play back is to insert hidden dynamic markings. If the hairpin is long, you would need to add a hidden dynamic marking on every beat. The latter would mean that you would probably need to duplicate some of the dynamic markings and edit their velocity for a smooth change in playback volume. You might need to invent some markings, so you could distinguish the values--e.g. pp-mpp-p-mp-m-mf-mff-f-ff-mff, etc.

My approach would be to find a good plug-in that is fully compatible with Finale.

Al Fine
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Post by Al Fine » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:21 pm

Djard, thanks for your input, and for doing the testing. It's helpful to know that you were able to duplicate a failure, and that my problem isn't due exclusive to my own efforts, ha-ha. I'll turn on the Ambience option and play around with the settings. I'm wondering--did you have it on for the Steinway test as well as for the SoftSynth one?

Re your suggestion of adding in hidden dynamics markings, as well as creating intermediate ones which fall between the established ones, we are on the same page, as I have already been doing that as a work-around (the difference being that for my document, such markings needn't be hidden). I've also found that exaggerating the desired peak by a dynamic level or two helps to make the effect more noticeable.

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:11 pm

The Steinway soundfont is only available for ARIA player. SoftSynth does not support the Steinway, which is my favorite because of the growl in the lower register. But Garritan's Piano 1, Piano Bright and Piano 3 in SoftSynth are OK. But a keyboard is not my primary instrument, so my opinion isn't worth much.

I too do not hide dynamic markings at the end of hairpins; but if you are going to add such markings for every beat, such as if using the Steinway piano, I would hide the array as a merciful regard for the reader. The gradual volume change is already indicated by the hairpin, which you can open wider if desired by dragging the end handles. I have even created an interrupted (broken) a hairpin to get around some other expression when space is limited. I sometimes opt for two medium-length hairpins as the change in volume is then more dramatic in playback and does not require adding markings. For me, the less busy a score, the more inviting it is to play; and so I sometimes just enter "cresc." Knowing how much to leave up to the reader's intelligence remains a challenge for me.

Al Fine
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Post by Al Fine » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:47 pm

Hi Djard, Upon the recommendation of another poster, I've been using the Garritan Concert D Grand Piano, and have found it a good fit for my music. It's nice that in this day and age, one has multiple choices available.

I failed to mention that the exclusive purpose of my audio files is to produce Mp3 files, so it doesn't matter how cluttered my score gets with markings. In fact, leaving such markings visible is vital to me being able to analyze what I'm hearing, as it allows me to adjust the markings as needed. Each of my audio files has a traditional score version for any potential performer. :-)

Hope you're enjoying the week-end!

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