Trumpets sound flat

Discuss playback problems, including VST, Garritan, MIDI, etc.

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:10 pm

I'm OK with the trombones, horns, saxes and clarinets, but all of the trumpet soundfonts sound as if they were sampled at 2 AM in a jazz nightclub. I get the impression that Garritan has a low opinion of trumpet players. Is there an option to this excessively human playback effect, like a setting or plug-in?


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gogreen
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Post by gogreen » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:04 pm

NotePerformer?
Art
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NotePerformer, GPO5, COMB2
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https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BRHBTHT/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=%22Arthur+J.+Michaels%22&qid=1593016536&sr=8-2

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:06 pm

Would you post a sample file for us to test? I've never noticed this, so maybe there is a setting in your file that is causing this. Maybe a pitchbend erroneously applied?

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:24 pm

Having shortened the document, the Bb trumpet does not sound as flat. But still, especially at the beginning of measure #17 in the attached file, the attack of the trumpet seems a bit too slow, before reaching true A4. I thought that maybe the cause is faulty music syntax, but then the other instruments sound OK to my ear.

How do the sounds in NotePerformer compare with those in Garritan?

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gogreen
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Post by gogreen » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:13 pm

How do the sounds in NotePerformer compare with those in Garritan?
I've used GPO5 and COMB2 for many years. Only recently I tried NotePerformer. I love it. I use NotePerformer for all my music now, but not exclusively. I use GPO5 for its percussion sounds, especially cymbals and snare drum.
Art
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NotePerformer, GPO5, COMB2
MacOS Ventura 13.6.4
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BRHBTHT/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=%22Arthur+J.+Michaels%22&qid=1593016536&sr=8-2

oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:55 pm

Hi, There were no Inst loaded for the Horn Section, so I added basic Garritan Inst.
The tpt pitch sounds fine, but it's kind of buried in the Mix.
But it is very LOW on the horn, I would Never write down to Low E!!!!

oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:59 pm

In fact, the Low E doesn't "sound" at all!
I don't know if you can get that 16th note Triplet in the Bass to work on Low E.
That sort of Kick is usual 16ths.
That's very FAST for repeated Pizz notes on the Open String.
Last edited by oldmkvi on Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gogreen
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Post by gogreen » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:05 pm

The tpt pitch sounds fine, but it's kind of buried in the Mix.
Some instruments in Garritan libraries are way too soft. Some are way too loud. To control the sound better on some instruments, I place them in their own Aria banks and adjust the sound with the volume settings on the far left of each bank in "Audio Units Banks & Effects" window.
Art
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NotePerformer, GPO5, COMB2
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https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08BRHBTHT/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=%22Arthur+J.+Michaels%22&qid=1593016536&sr=8-2

oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:09 pm

I'm not sure what A4 is, but there is no A , concert or transposed, in the Tpt in bar 17.

oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:20 pm

I haven't had that Volume problem.
I only use Dynamic Expressions, and HP.
I've never had to go inside the Aria Player for adjustments.
I see that there are NO Dynamics indicated at all in this arrangement.
Last edited by oldmkvi on Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:21 pm

You mean low concert E on a B-flat trumpet? Perfectly good note and easy to play and hear given the right accompaniment (see Carmen prelude).

oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:31 pm

I mean Low E on the horn!
This is a Jazz arrangement.
Most Jazzers don't play that low,
and clearly the whole thing is too low since it ends on that written Low E.
I'd come up with a different solution.
Lotta Tpt players can "Get" High G.
But try writing one.
Only a true Lead Player can play that consistently.
Writing below the staff for Tpts is dicey in the Jazz World.
They may be able to "get" the notes, but sounding good is another thing...

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:48 pm

F# is the lowest written note on the horn. It's possible to fake F-natural buy throwing out the 1st and 3rd valve slides and lipping it down, but not E.

oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:50 pm

You can put a paper tube in the top of a Bassoon for Low A...
OR , write it for Contra.
Use the Right Tool for the Job!
When the Tpt gets too low, it's Horn or Tombone -Time!

In Rimsky Korsakov's Orchestration Book,
he lists the Possible Range, and the most Expressive, practical Range.
Good Advice.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:30 pm

I see now you're referring the the djard file. That's just erroneous writing, even if Garritan can play it. F# is the lowest note. Writing F-natural or lower would be like writing E-flat for clarinet, or F# for violin.

oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:56 pm

YES!
"Writing low Eb for Bb Clarinet is just for the Effect.
The Effect of Silence!"
Don O'Brien

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:04 pm

When the file loaded for me, only the SoftSynth sounds played. The OP has a different Aria player than I do. When Finale loads a file using a different Aria player, it wipes out the Garritan instruments. I had to reload them. I didn't hear any obvious pitch issues, but Jazz Trumpet does have a different kind of sample than the Orchestral Trumpet, and possibly there is a quality of the Jazz Trumpet that is offending the ear. I'm not sure it is a flatness of pitch, but that could be the effect being perceived.

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ttw
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Post by ttw » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:29 pm

I've had the volume problem myself. I use gogreen's suggestion; I put instruments into different banks. I first started doing this in order to use different reverbs. The "Controls" settings also differ between instruments.

I've never had the pitch problem though. (Maybe later.)

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:21 pm

Oops! I had changed the Bb trumpet track to Baritone Sax then back to trumpet: somehow the notation got dropped an octave. So yeah, the track did not sound quite right to me. I must stop burning the candle late at night.

The fast triplet in the acoustic bass part can be played as a finger roll, using a-m-i. The pizz. notes are not played on an open string. There should be a circled "6" above the first A3 note in measure #19.

Double oops! for stating the first note in measure #17 was A4 (International Pitch Notation). I was working a lot that night with F clefs and read the trumpet as in a bass clef. Sigh!

How does one find the "Audio Units Banks & Effects" window?

P.S.: I am going to try the demo version of NotePerformer 3.1.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:35 pm

Audio Units is for Mac. Windows uses VST. It's in the MIDI/Audio menu.

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:09 am

Solved. Thanks.

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