Can we enter a pedal mark for both staves?

Discuss playback problems, including VST, Garritan, MIDI, etc.

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:52 pm

Is there a way to write pedal and release markings that affect playback in both staves, without duplication? For instance, if I enter a sustain and release mark in the G clef, I don't want to enter the same markings in the F clef then hide them.


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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:18 pm

I'm pretty sure pedal marks should go below the bottom staff no matter what, so maybe that's why it's not playing back correctly.

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:23 pm

Gould also asserts that pedal marks are placed below the F Clef, and I follow this convention. But pressing down on the sustain or release pedals on my piano and electronic keyboard always affect all the keys. So if in playback I want notes in both clefs to sustain/release, I need to enter marks for the G-clef as well then hide them. That would be disappointing. I saw nothing in the manual to address this matter.

I tried entering pedal marks with the custom line tool, also with as articulations (hold down P or L and mouse drag over notes in both staffs), but a single pedal mark cannot be applied to both staffs. Surely I am overlooking something.

Jari Williamson's site is currently not taking new registrations, so I cannot get help there.

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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:32 am

Try putting both staves on the same MIDI channel.

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:39 pm

This is surreal. One would think MakeMusic engineers would consult a musician before developing software for an instrument. Pianists that use Finale must be very tolerant people.

When you say, "Try putting both staves on the same MIDI channel," do you mean in the "Instrument List" of Score Manager? I have playback configured to play through VST.

Channels.jpg

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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:43 pm

Djard wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:39 pm
This is surreal. One would think MakeMusic engineers would consult a musician before developing software for an instrument. Pianists that use Finale must be very tolerant people.
Looks like you have both on the same channel. Since others are not complaining that the pedal doesn't work on both staves, perhaps you've done something wrong. The only way to get to the bottom of it is to post your file here.

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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:59 pm

This works for me. See if it works for you.

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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:43 pm

motet's file plays fine for me.
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Djard
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Post by Djard » Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:47 pm

Did you mute staff #2 in the mixer then play back staff #1?

For me, the pedal marks apply only to staff #2 in Motet's example. Attached is a document I created, using the Setup Wizard. The same issue appears: the pedal marks apply only to staff #2. If I want the marks to apply to both staffs, I must duplicate them in staff 1 then hide them.

As far as I know, the sustain pedal on a piano applies to all the keys. So while being able to control sustain for each staff is nice; in reality, the ability to do so is impossible. If I am overlooking something, please enlighten me.

Sustain Pedal.musx

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miker
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Post by miker » Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:03 pm

Yes, you’re overlooking the fact that in hundreds of years, composers have never needed to place pedaling marks on the treble staff. So how can you complain that Finale is deficient, since it won’t let you do it?
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:36 pm

The pedal does apply to both staves when they share a channel and both are playing. Setting the upper staff to Solo is confusing HP. Instead, uncheck Solo for the upper staff, and use the JW Change plugin to mute the Bass Staff notes. Then you will hear the upper staff included in the pedal.

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RVS Lee
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Post by RVS Lee » Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:35 pm

Djard -

It took me forever to figure out what you actually needed, but if I understand correctly you want to be able to audition the RH/treble clef solo, but with the ped marks (and other appropriate info) attached to the LH/bass clef still in effect. And it is true that when you solo one staff, Finale/HP totally ignores any midi info on the other staff. So no you can't do that.

But the situations in which I would want to audition only the top staff of a grand staff part are pretty limited - mostly proofing for incorrect pitches - and hearing pedalling would be irrelevant in those cases. If you are checking the texture created by a pedal mark, I would have thought that only made sense if you were playing back both hands.

As for differentiating the sustain between two staves... the sus pedal on a *real* piano wouldn't do that; I'm not sure why a software emulation should behave differently. And of course, there are many different ways to indicate varied sustains in each hand (precise notation of the implied durations, articulations over individual notes, adjusting the midi data for each voice, etc...) All of those are based on the limitations of a physical instrument of course...

RVSL

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:45 am

RSV Lee, you have fully understood my situation; and yes, I would not care about sustain when auditing notation in a particular staff.

Miker, I carefully read my posts again and just cannot see where I even intimated that I wanted to add pedal marking under the treble staff. I had considered adding hidden pedal marks there only as a workaround. But I will try to communicate more clearly in the future.

Evidently my ear was not good enough to detect that the damper release (sustain pedal) is indeed being applied to both staffs. I can hear it now. When solo playback of notes in the G-clef channel sounded damped--while those in solo playback of the F-clef sustained--it was logical to think that when both staffs are played, sustain is applied only to the F-clef. I just needed to listen more attentively. Thanks to all for your kind patience.

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Post by Daniel Gracely » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:17 am

I just registered and wanted to to a new post about half pedaling, but the forum does not seem to allow me to do a new post before I interact with other posts. Can anyone tell me if my assumption is correct about needing to respond to other persons' posts before I am allowed to do a new post. Thanks.

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miker
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Post by miker » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:44 am

No, there shouldn’t be a requirement before a new topic, but, what do I know? There is a requirement of a few posts before you can upload attachments. But it’s just a few, so don’t let it bother you.

I’d say, keep trying, and keep responding. You’ll get in soon enough!
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Djard
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Post by Djard » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:45 am

If I recall correctly, I experienced the same issue of not being able to start a new thread, many moons ago.

Keep participating. It did not take long before I was able to post my first question. Then again, I might be confusing forums.

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