Dynamic markings case Finale to disregard slurs

Discuss playback problems, including VST, Garritan, MIDI, etc.

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bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:45 pm

Okay, so I have a bar where the instruments slur over the bar line, but Finale insists on ignoring the slur marking. After much experimenting (translation: tearing out hair), I realize that when I removed the dynamic markings in the next bar, Finale will honor the slur. Can someone explain to me the connection between dynamic markings and slurs? I need those dynamics; I can't just leave them out for the sake of playback. If that's the work-around to hear it properly, fine: it's just another Finale quirk I have to live with, but I'd rather understand what's going on so maybe I can fix it. Thanks!
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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:15 pm

Do you mean you're slurring to a note with a dynamic marking? Humans have trouble with that, too.

bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:02 am

Really? Why?
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:43 am

what exactly are the dynamic markings?
can you at least post an image of what you've written?

a sudden change in dynamics requires a different type of playing. very few instruments can suddenly with control switch dynamics, particularly in a slur. The slur means "do not re-articulate the note".

are you maybe leaving out the hairpin crescendo?
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:12 am

A suddenly louder dynamic without an articulation will generally cause an artifact of some kind. You don't see it much. It's easier to change dynamics along with a rearticulation.

Jetcopy
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Post by Jetcopy » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:36 pm

However, it is common while in a slur to have a hairpin which either makes the passage louder or softer gradually.

bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:03 pm

Everyone, thanks for these helpful responses. For reasons other than the slur issue, I revised the section completely, so it's a moot point. I think my takeaway is that I didn't use a hairpin for the decrease from mf to p. I've tried to recreate the problem and failed; whatever I do now the slurred notes are played back slurred. Weird. I confess I wasn't clear whether we were talking "real life" or just Finale playback quirks. Playing trumpet, I have zero problem playing dim. on a slurred note; it's nothing. Regardless, if I have a similar passage to write in the future (inevitable), I'll use a hairpin and hopefully that's the answer.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:03 pm

and you answered your own question here: playing dim on a slurred note.
Finale can't know you want a diminuendo hairpin if you don't put one. it sees one dynamic, then suddenly another.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:10 pm

Understood. But in that case what I'd expect is a sudden drop in volume, not detaching the note completely when it's under a slur. Regardless, hopefully lesson learned. Thanks for your response.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:19 am

remember that underneath all of that music, there's still a computer and coding.
and the program basically is sending a code, once, that says "play this dynamic". so that note is assigned a specific dynamic.
then you give it another note, and have inserted a different dynamic marking. The program sees this and sends a single bit of information that says "play this dynamic".
The problem here is that there is a slur, and without ALSO telling the computer that there has to be a reduction in volume (which would basically be a while bunch of discrete bits of information that gradually give the impression of a smooth reduction in volume) you are giving it basically an "error". it doesn't know ow to handle a smooth transition from "loud" to "soft" (using those as an example) AND slurred. the program is basically handling the information as best as it can.
either it ignores the slur (which was what it was doing in this case),
or it ignores the 2nd dynamic (allowing the music to thus be slurred).
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:35 am

Sometimes one can do custom MIDI data manipulations to solve some MIDI processing issues. When a slur doesn't quite handle it by triggering the HP properly, I add a bit of length to the playback of the note with the MIDI Tool. Since different samples respond differently, and HP is not perfect, the MIDI Tool can come in handy.

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bj nick
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Post by bj nick » Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:14 pm

Thanks both of you for the information, which is all good to know so I can understand Finale better. I think for now I'll just try to remember the limitation and always include a hairpin.....rather not get into midi manipulation.....save you guys a lot of "help I'm drowning!" posts.
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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:24 pm

If you were playing this (without hairpins) on the trumpet, wouldn't you need to make a sudden "ha!' of air on the Bs? It is an attack of sorts. I guess it is different from tonguing the note, but usually when I've heard people do this (more commonly with an accent than with a change of dynamic), it's usually not very musical. (Loud to soft is not so much a problem.)
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